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Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

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Re: Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

#91

Post by brlewis »

duncan_bayne wrote: post #20
jacques_chester wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basically, I'd trust Bob Gosford. And the folks out bush tend to have a fairly keen understanding of their local ecosystems.

This may be a personal failing on my part - argument from personal incredulity as Dawkins puts it - but the idea of a bird intentionally carrying fire instead of fleeing it seems a bit odd. See also http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-03-03/smart-bushfire-birds/7... : > Mr Gosford said he had never actually seen a bird at a fire front, intentionally spreading the fire. > So he said he decided to appeal to people to come…

the idea of a bird intentionally carrying fire instead of fleeing it seems a bit odd

Small prey flees fire -> raptor associates fire with food -> raptor is attracted to fire -> raptor picks up stick with fire -> raptor drops stick since it isn't actually food -> small prey flees new fire -> raptor associates dropping fire stick with food.

Re: Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

#92

Post by robotresearcher »

blocked_again wrote: post #60
DeusExMachina wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Besides the snark, you are right. No other animal understands the concept of sacrificing something today to get something better in the future.

I didn't mean animals don't do sacrifices. I meant they don't do sacrifices for imaginary things.

How do you know what the ant imagines it is dying for, when it dies for its colony?

Re: Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

#93

Post by eumenides1 »

taneq wrote: post #7

So we're not the only: - tool-using animal - fire-using animal - language-using animal - animal which domesticates other animals - animal which builds complex structures Aha! I know! We're the only animal which continually comes up with reasons why we're special.

“Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly; Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?' Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land; Man got to tell himself he understand.”

- Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle

Re: Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

#94

Post by JoeAltmaier »

robotresearcher wrote: post #85
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Squirrels don't even remember where they've buried the acorns. They just bury and dig, and with enough squirrels involved it works out. Its an instinct that happens to contribute to survival.

They sacrifice something - an abundant summer acorn - today to get something better - a scarce winter acorn - in the future. It's a clear counter example to the claim above.

Except they don't mean to do anything. They're carrying an acorn, they pass a juicy spot, they feel compelled to stick the acorn in the spot. At no time does the squirrel think "I'll sacrifice this food now for food later!" So it's not reasonable to call it a sacrifice except metaphorically?

Re: Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

#95

Post by Rainymood »

saguro wrote: post #49
a3n wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Give them time; we took ours.

I don't think all branches of evolution lead to intelligence given any finite amount of time.

Of course not, but there just has to be one apart from ours, right? Besides we will all be extinct anyway before that because evolution takes billions of years.

Re: Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

#96

Post by robotresearcher »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #94
robotresearcher wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They sacrifice something - an abundant summer acorn - today to get something better - a scarce winter acorn - in the future. It's a clear counter example to the claim above.

Except they don't mean to do anything. They're carrying an acorn, they pass a juicy spot, they feel compelled to stick the acorn in the spot. At no time does the squirrel think "I'll sacrifice this food now for food later!" So it's not reasonable to call it a sacrifice except metaphorically?

How on earth do you know that?

And what difference does 'knowing' make? Do they make the sacrifice or not? They clearly do.

Re: Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

#97

Post by JoeAltmaier »

robotresearcher wrote: post #96
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except they don't mean to do anything. They're carrying an acorn, they pass a juicy spot, they feel compelled to stick the acorn in the spot. At no time does the squirrel think "I'll sacrifice this food now for food later!" So it's not reasonable to call it a sacrifice except metaphorically?

How on earth do you know that? And what difference does 'knowing' make? Do they make the sacrifice or not? They clearly do.

By reading, being educated. Its far to late to be mystified about how animals work. Its a couple of centuries of study by now, about their instincts and behaviors.

And recall, 'understanding the concept of sacrifice' was the topic.

Re: Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

#98

Post by yanslookup »

Y-bar wrote: post #28
yanslookup wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What animals use language?

Almost all of them. Which animals does not communicate verbally or with gestures or similar language constructs?

Hmm I haven't really thought about this but I was hoping there was some new development in the understanding of animal communication. I'm not a linguist but as far as I understand communication is not language. Language is communication however.

I guess I was hoping that this section of the language wikipedia didn't exist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language#Unique_status_of_huma....

Re: Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

#99

Post by toyg »

viridian wrote: post #5

This is super cool, if a bit scary. Man Australia has it all though, 8/10 of the deadliest spiders, half the deadliest snakes, crocodiles, rockfish, and now firebirds. Inhabiting Australia is a testament to man's arrogance.

Meh. Thanks to the technological and cultural advancements of the Afro-Euro-Asian human cluster, we could wipe 99% of these “threats” tomorrow if we wanted to. In fact, we did have comparable dangers in other continents in the past - we just had no qualms with killing every single one of them or burning their ecosystem to the ground, because we had no concept of “ecosystem”: everything in nature was a threat to be dealt with, and that was that. Back in the day, you could be attacked by rabid wolves while sitting in your garden! So we killed them, we hunted them down systematically until they were no longer a threat. We had terrible insects, killing and spreading diseases! So we removed all swamps and invented chemicals to massacre them. Etc etc.

Australia, for geographical reasons, simply started the process too late, when we were already getting cold feet. Now that we understand how Nature works a bit more, it’s become difficult to justify large-scale efforts to remove these threats to human life. We find it more acceptable to suffer a potential spider bite here and there, than to risk irreparable losses to the variety of life and the quality of our planet’s natural state.

If anything, the fact that Australia manages to slowly expand human footprint while still maintaining a balanced truce with our predators, is testament to the level of emotional maturity that our animal race has reached.

Re: Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

#100

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

meri_dian wrote: post #69
taneq wrote: post #7

So we're not the only: - tool-using animal - fire-using animal - language-using animal - animal which domesticates other animals - animal which builds complex structures Aha! I know! We're the only animal which continually comes up with reasons why we're special.

In each of those categories we're far and away the best. I really don't understand this feeling that humans need to be modest or that describing ourselves as special is wrong. We are special. I think among some people that are frustrated with the human world for whatever - either personal or abstract - reason, there's a feeling of misanthropy that colors their thinking, and so they try to belittle humanity.

The point of this, I think, is that we justify our behavior towards animals on the belief that they are not "the same" as us. That is, that they aren't beings capable of the same rich experiences of the world that we are and, therefore, their suffering is less important than ours. This same sort of rationalization has been used throughout history to justify similar behavior towards other human beings.

Evidence is increasingly showing us that the qualities we believed differentiated us from animals, that made our lives more worthy of respect, aren't actually unique to us.

If you're going to come back at that with "we're better at these things than they are", then that philosophy suggests again that there are lesser classes of human being as well, the ones that aren't as good as others at whatever metric you happen to be using.

It is natural that we seek to justify behavior on which our living standards are dependent, but that doesn't make our reasoning sound.

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