German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account • Hacker News Board

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#171

Post by abiox » Thu, Jan 04, 2018, 4:29 AM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #147

abiox wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this seems like a red herring or something... are 'calls for genocide' actually a thing worth caring about? is there a legitimate possibility that, say, bob goes on twitter and says 'kill all romanians!' and suddenly there's a genocide of romanians? it's doesn't make sense. i mean, i get that it's attempting to appeal to one's aversion to a very bad idea, but random bob can't cause a genocide. a strong dictatorship a…

are 'calls for genocide' actually a thing worth caring about? If you're a member of the subject group, then they most certainly are. Instead of constructing silly examples, let me suggest you look into the history of ethnic cleansing in Yugoslavia or Hutu-Tutsi animus in Rwanda.

military or organized physical violence is not the same as a random yokel saying dumb things on the internet.

invoking real world violence as a stand-in for which one calibrates their regard for a person's tweets seems more like an emotional appeal rather than a logical dialog.

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#172

Post by olivermarks » Thu, Jan 04, 2018, 4:34 AM UTC

darklajid wrote: post #168

olivermarks wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_10_of_the_European_Con... 'Free Expression' is the equivalent euro terminology as I understand it. I'm a Brit living in the US so I think I understand your German perspective but don't understand you supporting the restriction of Free Speech/Expression...

That link's number 2 seems to apply (and explicitly talks about restrictions)? The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or…

I'd argue free expression has been the difference between the western world and more oppressive regimes speakers corner London and Hamburg in 1966, a bit like pre internet Facebook ranting... https://youtu.be/XGzmRhfef7w

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#173

Post by Daishiman » Thu, Jan 04, 2018, 4:38 AM UTC

kansface wrote: post #140

IBM wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany does have a good record with the former considering that they've completely denazified themselves while remaining a liberal democracy. The fact is that Germany is the perfect counterpoint to the, frankly tired, slippery slope arguments made by the libertarians of Silicon Valley. And I enjoy seeing them try to explain it.

Do you find this statement convincing at all? The fact is that the US is the perfect counterpoint to the, frankly tired, slippery slope arguments made by the far left of the Bay. And I enjoy seeing them try to explain it.

You mean the US where overly racist behavior by the police does not raise eyebrows?

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#174

Post by abiox » Thu, Jan 04, 2018, 4:41 AM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #144

abiox wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because it forces the rotten core of the ideas to the forefront. it seems to me it would do the opposite. it simply requires that one pursue the same goal in a more polite manner, to avoid being put in prison for one's words. ideas and intents can be rendered in a vast array of ways. > By criminalizing specific icons of hate, you can rob those who would build a following from using them as a rallying point. i don't…

This is incorrect. Logic and reason have value, of course, but most people are emotional animals rather than pure rationalists. The trick of political demagoguery is is to activate those emotions and then rhetorically direct them. This is why laws against incitement and suchlike generally require the potential harm to be imminent. It's one thing for someone to say 'really, I think out_group_X bears liability for cert…

> Logic and reason have value, of course, but most people are emotional animals rather than pure rationalists.

there isn't an either/or situation... people are both. and people must obviously be sufficiently rational, a sufficient amount of the time, because civilization exists and society progresses.

you don't get to the moon and back if your species is nothing but bloody barbarians.

> incitement

this discussion seems to veer all over the place. fascism, hate speech, incitement, etc. are all different things, but also have a variety of definitions; often so fuzzily defined that two identical acts could be read differently by two different judges.

'hate speech' (whatever that really means) is largely legal in the US, but incitement that demonstrates imminent harm is not.

even with legal hate speech, the US isn't a genocidal warzone. because that's not how genocide works.

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#175

Post by Daishiman » Thu, Jan 04, 2018, 4:43 AM UTC

Amezarak wrote: post #101

shaki-dora wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's such a juvenile reaction... Germany is considering a stable, open, democratic, peaceful, constructive and successful country. There are any number of rankings/scoring regarding freedom of the press and of expression, resilience to corruption, democracy, economic opportunity etc in which Germany scores better than the US. These are laws passed by the national parliament, elected to represent its constituents. T…

> There are any number of rankings/scoring regarding freedom of the press and of expression, resilience to corruption, democracy, economic opportunity etc in which Germany scores better than the US. One of the reasons people regard these rankings as a total joke is exactly because of incidents like this - Twitter being forced to delete satirical tweets. More broadly, I think most people would agree that beyond the ex…

> One of the reasons people regard these rankings as a total joke is exactly because of incidents like this - Twitter being forced to delete satirical tweets.

I'm sorry but in the extensive travels of tons of people who've been around the world, those rankings are usually right on the money. It is obvious to most people who've been around that Germany or Norway have much greater levels of freedom of expression than Venezuela, as a rather trivial example.

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#176

Post by Daishiman » Thu, Jan 04, 2018, 4:44 AM UTC

nine_k wrote: post #75

somenewacc wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that calls for genocide are part of the global discourse.

Sorry, here's reality for you. A lot of unpleasant, dangerous, and clearly wrong ideas are present outside your filter bubble. Being aware of them may be also unpleasant and dangerous, but pretending they do not exist, and are not being voiced, is delusional. Choose your poison.

We all know these ideas existed. Nobody's pretending that they don't exist. We can be aware of ideas existing without being advocates of them.

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#177

Post by grzm » Thu, Jan 04, 2018, 4:46 AM UTC

Daishiman wrote: post #173

kansface wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you find this statement convincing at all? The fact is that the US is the perfect counterpoint to the, frankly tired, slippery slope arguments made by the far left of the Bay. And I enjoy seeing them try to explain it.

You mean the US where overly racist behavior by the police does not raise eyebrows?

There is plenty of often strong discussion regarding the police and race in the United States and by US residents on HN. While they may not be raised high enough to satisfy you, to claim that this "does not raise eyebrows" is naive or disingenuous and needlessly inflammatory.

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#178

Post by yorwba » Thu, Jan 04, 2018, 4:50 AM UTC

musage wrote: post #114

nine_k wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be naive to ascribe Nazi propaganda alone the role of the fire starter in WWII. The problem is that the Nazi propaganda fell on ears that eagerly wanted to believe it, so the Nazi leader was democratically elected before he seized the absolute power. If Nazi propaganda might have any noticeable success in today's Germany (or US, or wherever), it's not because of some crackpots from stormfront; they are a con…

Hitler wasn't elected, he was appointed. Which doesn't take away from your point, but it's really astonishing how such easy to correct falsehoods about such a deeply important subject just linger on and get repeated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_presidential_election,_... The Nazis lied and cheated and murdered their way to power, make no mistake about it. And that was kind of like an onion, too, in that ever…

Hitler lost the direct presidential election, but Hindenburg (his competitor in that election) didn't appoint him as chancellor for no reason; Hitler's NSDAP was the largest party in the Reichstag, and was therefore a natural choice for forming a government. That's roughly the same level of democratic legitimacy as that of any other German chancellor since.

The Nazis also lied and cheated and murdered, but it wasn't necessary for their rise to power; until they went about abolishing democratic institutions altogether, they could have worked entirely with above-the-board means.

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#179

Post by labster » Thu, Jan 04, 2018, 5:02 AM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #169

King-Aaron wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they're all keeping their racist opinions to themselves, I might waste a bunch of time being their friends I have several friends who I know hold some less-than-sociable opinions, and they do tend to keep them to themselves. I don't quite know how to frame what I'm about to say, but I feel it's equally dickish to think that becoming someone's friend is a "waste of time" just because you don't agree with their op…

I think there is something to the idea of "safety valve". That is allow some venting in order to prevent full-blown animus. However, the difficult part is two-fold. One how to define the line of unacceptability (for example, calling for actionable violence against someone) and how to enforce that line and keep it steadfast (unwavering in the face of both antagonists --the ones for more control as well as the absoluti…

The internet is a terrible safety valve to vent at, because it's too easy to pretend what you say doesn't have consequences. One tweet by a dude having a bad day can help normalize stereotyping to 50 people. And there's always that other guy who takes things too far.

I know that people might intend Twitter or blogs to be for friends, but it's mass media nonetheless.

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#180

Post by abiox » Thu, Jan 04, 2018, 5:08 AM UTC

Grollicus wrote: post #120

abiox wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we've had enough of that shit here 70 years ago. you had a military dictatorship. it couldn't be opposed or contested by anyone, because you and/or your family would just be killed. german citizens couldn't stop the killing any more than russians could stop millions from being killed. that was the fundamental problem. dictators do as they please. criminalizing the speech of random bob under a democratic government…

What you are writing here is a dangerous thing because it relativizes the holocaust. Military Dictatorships don't suddenly appear out of nothing. My grandparents' generation chose to actively look away because they thought it won't get "that bad". They might have told themselfes they didn't know better - you know, afterwards - but you can't remove 6 million people out of a country of maybe 60 million and no one notic…

> What you are writing here is a dangerous thing because it relativizes the holocaust.

i'm honestly not even sure what this means. could you rephrase?

> Military Dictatorships don't suddenly appear out of nothing.

sure. they usually seize power, though not always. and they tend to follow some kind of instability. after ww1 germany was in terrible shape. blockades during the war contributed to hunderds of thousands of people starving to death. the economy was in the gutter, inflation was out of control - before they got it under control 1 us dollar was equal to 4 trillion german marks. there was violence in the streets between political parties. the reichstag fire. concentration camps started with political opponents. the night of long knives was all about murdering political opponents and even allies who were deemed too influential and thus a risk.

being so absurdly reductive to just say 'hate speech' is primarily or even secondarily responsible for the formation of military dictatorships seems almost insulting. it's theater, an appeasement of sensibilities that leaves people more vulnerable to repeating the past than rational assessment of history.