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German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

reuters.com

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Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#151

Post by anigbrowl »

Houshalter wrote: post #142
anigbrowl wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comparing a weak country that has been overrun by a much stronger one with economically dominant western countries that have suffered some integration problems is a false equivalence. Germans do not find themselves in the same predicament as Tibetans, by any stretch of the imagination.

>Comparing a weak country that has been overrun by a much stronger one What does this matter at all? How does the GDP of Germany change anything? If Germany was poor it would be different? >Germans do not find themselves in the same predicament as Tibetans, by any stretch of the imagination. How exactly is that? It looks like exactly the same thing to me. The native population is being completely replaced with immigr…

What does this matter at all? How does the GDP of Germany change anything? If Germany was poor it would be different?

If it were poor and were being coercively restructured by some outside hegemonic power (as many argue Tibet is) then yes of course that would make a difference.

The native population is being completely replaced with immigrants.

Germany's immigrant population is 10-12%, and last time I looked everyone in the German government was German. It's impossible to take your hyperbole seriously.

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#152

Post by squarefoot »

dilap wrote: post #30
everdev wrote: post #8

This is exactly the moral dilemma with free speech vs hate speech. Do you use fascist techniques like criminalizing speech to stop the spread of fascist ideas? Or do you simply hope fascist ideas don't take hold? The former is a scary slippery slope but Germany doesn't have a great track record with the latter.

There's no dilema. It's just an excuse for control. Letting Nazis speak will not actually convert modern society into Nazis.

It depends on whom they talk to. Adult informed people will easily ignore their nonsense, while youngsters will very often be attracted by the Nazi/Fascist false sense of strength because in their still young minds aggressiveness equals strength. Fascism is coming back in some parts of Europe and we won't get rid of it by simply asking politely to go away.

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#153

Post by darklajid »

olivermarks wrote: post #70

That term 'hate speech' - what does it actually mean? This seems like another assault on free speech to me and there is a danger in limiting the online Overton Window to a massive bland snooze fest. The current joy of the internet is being able to read all sorts of perspectives from 'sensible' to radical and I really hope that continues...I worry for all the citizen journalists and investigators who have been so magn…

Free Speech (using capitals for a reason) is a US centric concept whenever it comes up here and you're from SF (according to Twitter).

That just doesn't apply here. This Free Speech never existed in the Germany I grew up in and it's not something that I ever felt needed. The incident here is a mistake, a strange overreaction - maybe even by Twitter? - and hopefully will be corrected promptly.

So while I understand that you might be unfamiliar with the underlying laws in Germany: I wouldn't want to trade them in.

Edit: I fully support the restriction of Free Speech and prosecution of hate speech. I'm not a fan of the new 'delete content online' NetzDG thing

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#154

Post by darklajid »

steveeq1 wrote: post #107
Grollicus wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand your meaning, sorry. Do you mean would I want to see 'violent american black rap lyrics' banned? Depends on what is said I guess? If theres a song about 'kill all the jews' we've had enough of that shit here 70 years ago. Generally german courts are very narrow about what is Volksverhetzung. If you run afoul of it you are very far away from any sensible discussion. The law is basically "don't (1)in…

> I don't understand your meaning, sorry. Meaning if there's american rap song about killing people, do germans ban it? These violent lyrics seem to fall under the law as you described. Also, are violent american rap songs banned (in practice) in germany? Do germans have this same negative attitude to american "thugs"?

No idea about those violent American rap songs, but violent German songs? Sure. And not just right-winged Nazi shit, extreme leftist content is hit as well and banned (I don't listen to music from either faction but could readily find examples/quotes about music from both ends of the spectrum being banned).

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#155

Post by norikki »

Grollicus wrote: post #85
olivermarks wrote: post #70

That term 'hate speech' - what does it actually mean? This seems like another assault on free speech to me and there is a danger in limiting the online Overton Window to a massive bland snooze fest. The current joy of the internet is being able to read all sorts of perspectives from 'sensible' to radical and I really hope that continues...I worry for all the citizen journalists and investigators who have been so magn…

'hate speech' is an oversimplification chosen by the media. The law acually forces large social media companies in germany to remove illegal* content from their site within one week. Context is that Facebook has been ignoring illegal* content on their site and generally made an ass out of german law enforcement, so they got a law to rein them in. *illegal: libel, Volksverhetzung ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksv…

According to that wikipedia article, the German law translates Volksverhetzung into English as "incitement to hatred". So no, saying that Germany has banned 'hate speech' is not an oversimplification chosen by the media. You are intentionally conflating politically incorrect opinions about immigration (aka 'hate speech') with child porn and violent threats.

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#156

Post by craftyguy »

squarefoot wrote: post #152
dilap wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no dilema. It's just an excuse for control. Letting Nazis speak will not actually convert modern society into Nazis.

It depends on whom they talk to. Adult informed people will easily ignore their nonsense, while youngsters will very often be attracted by the Nazi/Fascist false sense of strength because in their still young minds aggressiveness equals strength. Fascism is coming back in some parts of Europe and we won't get rid of it by simply asking politely to go away.

> because in their still young minds aggressiveness equals strength

Checking in from the US, where that mindset transcends age groups and economic status.

Even comfortable old folks, for example, can be convinced that aggressiveness is required.

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#157

Post by bluthru »

rubatuga wrote: post #149
bluthru wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Racism: can make people fear for their lives. Multiculturalism: can make people fear for their lives. People are only allowed to express their fears about one of those issues, and the government decides which of those fears is valid. This is despite the fact that both racism and multiculturalism can make people fear for their lives. That's utterly dystopian. In general with social media moderating, I'm very much agai…

I am curious how multiculturalism makes people fear for their life. Do you mean that a certain group of people may lose their lifestyle? Or do you actually mean life-death scenarios? I am trying quite hard, but I cannot think of any situation of multiculturalism that makes somebody fear their own death. Unless, if in fact you are talking about violence and crime from immigrants, you are free to express it. Furthermor…

>Or do you actually mean life-death scenarios?

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-09-29/race-and-hom...

>Unless, if in fact you are talking about violence and crime from immigrants, you are free to express it.

You can usually express it, but the police in some areas might be afraid to act on it: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11391314/Rother...

>Almost always racism can be shown to be linked to violence and murder

If a nation says "we only want our people in our country" that would lead to violence and murder? How?

>but multicultralism is a policy that my country, Canada, has successfully modeled

Compared to what? Japan isn't multicultural and it has lower violent crime than Canada. I can't find an arrest breakdown by race for Canada, but here's NYC: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C-5s21EXsAUjLzP.jpg

>multiculturalism itself doesn’t cause life-death scenarios

"Not surprisingly, the length of a conflict and its casualty rate is 25 percent higher in areas where an ethnicity is divided by a national border as opposed to areas where ethnicities have a united homeland."

http://freakonomics.com/2011/12/01/the-violent-legacy-of-afr...

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#158

Post by olivermarks »

darklajid wrote: post #153
olivermarks wrote: post #70

That term 'hate speech' - what does it actually mean? This seems like another assault on free speech to me and there is a danger in limiting the online Overton Window to a massive bland snooze fest. The current joy of the internet is being able to read all sorts of perspectives from 'sensible' to radical and I really hope that continues...I worry for all the citizen journalists and investigators who have been so magn…

Free Speech (using capitals for a reason) is a US centric concept whenever it comes up here and you're from SF (according to Twitter). That just doesn't apply here. This Free Speech never existed in the Germany I grew up in and it's not something that I ever felt needed. The incident here is a mistake, a strange overreaction - maybe even by Twitter? - and hopefully will be corrected promptly. So while I understand th…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_10_of_the_European_Con...

'Free Expression' is the equivalent euro terminology as I understand it. I'm a Brit living in the US so I think I understand your German perspective but don't understand you supporting the restriction of Free Speech/Expression...

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#159

Post by StanislavPetrov »

squarefoot wrote: post #152
dilap wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no dilema. It's just an excuse for control. Letting Nazis speak will not actually convert modern society into Nazis.

It depends on whom they talk to. Adult informed people will easily ignore their nonsense, while youngsters will very often be attracted by the Nazi/Fascist false sense of strength because in their still young minds aggressiveness equals strength. Fascism is coming back in some parts of Europe and we won't get rid of it by simply asking politely to go away.

Unfortunately its not just "youngsters" who lack the critical thinking skills and/or intelligence to be influenced by "nonsense". What these laws are really about are trying to ensure that easily-influenced people are only influenced by government nonsense, rather than nonsense that the government frowns upon. The bottom line is, that to have and maintain a decent society, you need a population that is (to a large degree) informed, aware, and possessing of critical thinking skills. This is true whether you are talking about criminalizing frowned-upon speech or the "fake news" phenomenon that has been popularized here in the United States as of late. The core problem is that those at the pinnacle of our society (the permanent overclass of the ultrawealthy, oligarchs and intelligentsia that control governments and other levers of power) want to have it both ways. They want a largely ignorant, easily-influenced populace that they can control and influence while at the same time having a populace that is immune to ideas that are frowned-upon (by them). Since this isn't possible, their only alternative is to try to silence the "nonsense" that is frowned upon. We see this in Germany via this hate speech laws (which are largely aimed at stifling dissent over their massive influx of North African/Middle East immigrants and the resulting problems), and in the United States via Russiagate (which is an attempt to paint those who oppose the CIA/DC/NATO narrative as traitors or Russian agents [see the treatment of Jill Stein, Ron Paul, or the WaPo's Propornot article as examples]).

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/russian-prop...

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#160

Post by racer-v »

squarefoot wrote: post #152
dilap wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no dilema. It's just an excuse for control. Letting Nazis speak will not actually convert modern society into Nazis.

It depends on whom they talk to. Adult informed people will easily ignore their nonsense, while youngsters will very often be attracted by the Nazi/Fascist false sense of strength because in their still young minds aggressiveness equals strength. Fascism is coming back in some parts of Europe and we won't get rid of it by simply asking politely to go away.

Fascism is coming back in some parts of Europe and we won't get rid of it by simply asking politely to go away.

Maybe you could get rid of it by having better ideas?

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