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German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

reuters.com

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Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#131

Post by cup »

Mithaldu wrote: post #105
danschumann wrote: post #57

The problem with hate speech laws are, it means you can't insult everyone equally. If you call someone stupid, they could accuse you of a crime, but you're not calling them stupid because of their race. And I want people who actually are racist to talk, so I know who I don't want to be friends with. If they're all keeping their racist opinions to themselves, I might waste a bunch of time being their friends. And I ca…

> I want people who actually are racist to talk, so I know who I don't want to be friends with. I keep seeing this statement, but all i can think is: Fuck, i wish i was lucky enough to have so few racists around me to be able to think i can spare the time and mental health for additional ones. Good for you, be glad you apparently have few to none racists around you, so you don't know what it's like when there's tons…

People who probably are white and male.

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#132

Post by icebraining »

Houshalter wrote: post #88
icebraining wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Accusing the police of trying “to appease the barbaric, Muslim, rapist hordes of men” by putting out a tweet in Arabic is not just "opposing immigration".

Yes, I'm sure if someone called Catholics pedophiles and backwards barbarians, they would be treated similarly. Or Muslims themselves making similar comments about homosexuals or Western women. Somehow these laws only ever seem to be used against conservatives.

Well, then maybe the conservative Christian Democratic Union (CDU) party shouldn't have passed it. Or maybe it's not really the case:

"German atheist runs afoul of country's rarely enforced blasphemy laws after he was fined €500 for driving around with anti-Christian slogans on his car"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/121...

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#133

Post by Amezarak »

dragonwriter wrote: post #116
nine_k wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be naive to ascribe Nazi propaganda alone the role of the fire starter in WWII. The problem is that the Nazi propaganda fell on ears that eagerly wanted to believe it, so the Nazi leader was democratically elected before he seized the absolute power. If Nazi propaganda might have any noticeable success in today's Germany (or US, or wherever), it's not because of some crackpots from stormfront; they are a con…

> The problem is that the Nazi propaganda fell on ears that eagerly wanted to believe it, so the Nazi leader was democratically elected before he seized the absolute power. That's not really accurate; the Nazis got power not by outright winning a democratic election, but because the various other parties were more concerned about each other than the Nazis, and thus more willing to tolerate a Nazi-coalition government…

> more afraid of each other than the Nazis.

That wasn't exactly irrational, the Nazis were not the first or only party in Germany to be engaging in widespread violence. The Communists, for example, were a real and actual threat. Mass street violence and assassinations were common in Weimar Germany even when the Nazis were nobodies.

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#134

Post by dragonwriter »

Amezarak wrote: post #133
dragonwriter wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem is that the Nazi propaganda fell on ears that eagerly wanted to believe it, so the Nazi leader was democratically elected before he seized the absolute power. That's not really accurate; the Nazis got power not by outright winning a democratic election, but because the various other parties were more concerned about each other than the Nazis, and thus more willing to tolerate a Nazi-coalition government…

> more afraid of each other than the Nazis. That wasn't exactly irrational, the Nazis were not the first or only party in Germany to be engaging in widespread violence. The Communists, for example, were a real and actual threat. Mass street violence and assassinations were common in Weimar Germany even when the Nazis were nobodies.

> That wasn't exactly irrational

Nor did I say that it was (at least, based on information available at the time; it may have been strictly irrational in rational choice terms, where rationality implies optimality based on the actual future consequences and not merely anticipated ones.)

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#135

Post by Shivetya »

everdev wrote: post #8

This is exactly the moral dilemma with free speech vs hate speech. Do you use fascist techniques like criminalizing speech to stop the spread of fascist ideas? Or do you simply hope fascist ideas don't take hold? The former is a scary slippery slope but Germany doesn't have a great track record with the latter.

everything becomes hate speech when a third party is involved and it is the third party which has to pay the fine. these companies have little choice but to err on the side of caution.

haters can spread hate with near impunity because someone else is paying the price if they don't act fast enough to remove it

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#136

Post by MollyR »

sampo wrote: post #14
everdev wrote: post #8

This is exactly the moral dilemma with free speech vs hate speech. Do you use fascist techniques like criminalizing speech to stop the spread of fascist ideas? Or do you simply hope fascist ideas don't take hold? The former is a scary slippery slope but Germany doesn't have a great track record with the latter.

> Do you use fascist techniques like criminalizing speech to stop the spread of fascist ideas? Or do you simply hope fascist ideas don't take hold? If you resort to fascist techniques, then fascist ideas clearly have taken hold.

Fascist techniques won't stop it then, it will only amplify them.

The fascist kind of suppressing (usually disagreements with the establishment or status quo) speech usually ends in violence and revolution.

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#137

Post by anigbrowl »

Houshalter wrote: post #95
icebraining wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Accusing the police of trying “to appease the barbaric, Muslim, rapist hordes of men” by putting out a tweet in Arabic is not just "opposing immigration".

Seriously though, how do you oppose immigration without criticizing the people who are immigrating? The comment may have been hyperbolic, sure. But it's completely reasonable to be concerned about immigrants raising the crime rate. Or having objectionable cultural beliefs and changing your country's culture. Look at it from an outside view. Tibet was taken over by China and they are intentionally flooding it with Chi…

Comparing a weak country that has been overrun by a much stronger one with economically dominant western countries that have suffered some integration problems is a false equivalence. Germans do not find themselves in the same predicament as Tibetans, by any stretch of the imagination.

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#138

Post by Amezarak »

icebraining wrote: post #86
Houshalter wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These people aren't "nazis" or "fascists". They have beliefs that would have been considered completely normal and moderate in 1940's US. The people that defeated the Nazis would be considered Nazis today. It's obscene how far left the overton window has moved. Opposing immigration is a pretty long way from Nazism.

Accusing the police of trying “to appease the barbaric, Muslim, rapist hordes of men” by putting out a tweet in Arabic is not just "opposing immigration".

Here's the full context of her comments.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/02/world/europe/germany-twit...

> In a tweet on Sunday, the lawmaker, Beatrix von Storch, questioned the decision by the police in the western city of Cologne to put out a message in Arabic, as part of a multilingual campaign to promote the theme of this year’s New Year’s Eve festivities: “Celebrate — with respect.” The message was also posted in English, French and Persian. The festivities in Cologne, in Germany’s most populous state, North Rhine-Westphalia, draw thousands every year.

> “What the hell is wrong with this country? Why is the official page of police in NRW tweeting in Arabic,” Ms. von Storch wrote on Dec. 31. “Are they seeking to appease the barbaric, Muslim, rapist hordes of men?”

> Her comments were particularly provocative because Cologne was the site of a rampage on New Year’s Eve 2015, in which hundreds of men groped, assaulted, harassed or robbed women. Many of the men were asylum-seekers or other immigrants, and the attacks on women fueled criticism by the Alternative for Germany, which argued that Ms. Merkel should not have opened Germany’s doors to so many foreigners.

> Facebook later removed that post, Ms. von Storch told her followers. She vowed not to be silenced by the new law, but to continue to “call out problems by name.” She went on to insist that the young men who had sexually harassed German women were “not Protestant Swedes, not Catholic Poles, not Orthodox Russians, not Jewish Israelis and not Buddhist Thais. The overwhelming majority of them are young Muslim men for whom women and followers of other faiths are second-class citizens.”

It seems to me that, in context, this is an inflammatory statement, and somewhat a silly one (why does that mean they shouldn't put it out in Arabic?), but given that she was commenting on a situation that did literally involve rapist hordes of men who happened to be Muslim, I have trouble accepting that a country could justifiably declare that speech illegal. It's even more disturbing to me given that she's apparently a prominent politician and the government is looking into charging her for this statement.

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#139

Post by anigbrowl »

steveeq1 wrote: post #117
Grollicus wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Songs about killing people are generally not banned because of Volksverhetzung. That law is specific about the 3 things I listed in me comment above. (3) is a very strong requirement because it means the song must be theoretically able to disturb the peace in germany, eg. incite riots or something equally drastic. Theres not much that can do that. Songs about killing minorities might be banned, but then it's still ab…

> is a very strong requirement because it means the song must be theoretically able to disturb the peace in germany, eg. incite riots or something equally drastic. Many american rap songs do just exactly this, and it's not satirical. Sometimes rap songs do mentioning killing jews specifically although it is relatively rare. Most of the time it talks about killing other black people, which falls under the second part…

'Many American rap songs' incite riots? this is news to me.

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#140

Post by kansface »

IBM wrote: post #22
everdev wrote: post #8

This is exactly the moral dilemma with free speech vs hate speech. Do you use fascist techniques like criminalizing speech to stop the spread of fascist ideas? Or do you simply hope fascist ideas don't take hold? The former is a scary slippery slope but Germany doesn't have a great track record with the latter.

Germany does have a good record with the former considering that they've completely denazified themselves while remaining a liberal democracy. The fact is that Germany is the perfect counterpoint to the, frankly tired, slippery slope arguments made by the libertarians of Silicon Valley. And I enjoy seeing them try to explain it.

Do you find this statement convincing at all?

The fact is that the US is the perfect counterpoint to the, frankly tired, slippery slope arguments made by the far left of the Bay. And I enjoy seeing them try to explain it.

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