Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

washingtonpost.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

471–480 of 547 posts

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#471

Post by 659087 »

leroy_masochist wrote: post #383
pc86 wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given how much information is classified, the minimum amount of secrets to do just about any job at the NSA is probably "lots of secrets" to most people. To your attack point, when I was in the Marine Corps, one of my drill instructors said something to the effect of "You know why I joined the Marine Corps? Because it's one of the only jobs where you can legally kill a [expletive]." He didn't work in intelligence bef…

> when I was in the Marine Corps, one of my drill instructors said something to the effect of "You know why I joined the Marine Corps? Because it's one of the only jobs where you can legally kill a [expletive]." How confident are you that he actually earnestly meant this? I've heard DIs / SOI instructors say things like that on several occasions, but it was all pretty clearly within the context of trying to be "motiv…

> I've heard DIs / SOI instructors say things like that on several occasions, but it was all pretty clearly within the context of trying to be "motivating"....they didn't come across as actually psychotic.

If that's their idea of "motivational speaking", there's a whole new set of problems.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#472

Post by moduspol »

crdoconnor wrote: post #470
moduspol wrote: post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do taxpayers pay for your Fortune 500 company's employees' salaries? These things happen everywhere, but in the private sector, that inefficiency only lasts as long as the rest of the company carries it. It's the taxpayer funding and political difficulty in fixing that make the incompetence of government employees more problematic.

That's such a load of bullshit. If it's an oligopoly or monopoly in a market where the consumer has very little market power, you are just as unable to avoid funding this profligacy. I guess you could give up medical care, internet and having an education, but if you're going to do that why not just 'vote with your wallet' with your taxes too and move abroad.

There are edge cases in the private sector where it is similar, but it's very much the norm in government work.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#473

Post by mozumder »

jessaustin wrote: post #425
mozumder wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For highlights, after NSA I went to Intel and worked on early CMOS camera image sensors - you could put processor logic in the same die. Then went to a small company that designed Iridium Satellite communications chips - personal satellite communications from anywhere in the world! - as well as hyperspectral imaging spy satellites - instead of just Bayer RGB, you had 1000 wavelengths of sensor per pixel.. good for id…

Can you link to your magazine? It sounds interesting!

Our site is at: http://www.futureclaw.com

Our magazine is print, but you can view it online as well at: http://www.issuu.com/futureclawmag/docs/issue_6

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#474

Post by sanderjd »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #456
sanderjd wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd be hard pressed to convince me that someone who fought for their country in the military should not be preferred as a civil servant. It seems like a very strong qualification for these jobs.

Maybe we're better off loading the dice so that they pursue other lines of work. They may be good at being government workers. They may want to be government workers. It may be better for society over all if we do not give them preferential treatment in some roles but do in others. This question obviously only applies to a subset of veterans. There's a civilian analog to many military jobs and the military's training…

Maybe? None of what you're saying is obvious to me in either direction. But it does seem to me that "served country in the past" is a reasonable thing to consider when hiring for largely thankless civil service jobs.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#475

Post by mozumder »

southphillyman wrote: post #355
pc86 wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's popular to say things like some government employees are "folks who can't hack it in civilian life," but there's basically no evidence this is true. Have you ever worked for government? I'm a civilian contractor in a software architecture role to a public safety agency in a state government. Half the "senior application developers" haven't written code in 15 years and don't know what a unit test is. There are…

This is more in line with my experience. A friend of mine purposely sought out a job in government for the job security. He seemed to have had a rough time in the private sector as he was always getting laid off/fired and generally seemed to never like his bosses etc. He explicitly expressed that he wanted a job where he could be comfortable working at his own pace without having to worry about performance based eval…

Why are people conflating "government work" with "NSA work"?

It's like saying "corporate work" instead of "Google work".

State level agencies are obviously going to be low-level dreck. The NSA is completely different, and has some of the smartest people on the planet.

It's intellectually lazy (read: dumb) to apply an anecdote to everything, like saying "black guy committed a crime, therefore ALL black guys are criminals". Be smart and more deliberate, instead of being intellectually lazy.

I've been in enough situations, both in the corporate and government sides, to know that each situation is unique. I worked at/with large companies (Intel, IBM), medium companies (Cadence, ATI), and several small startups, along with government (NSA/other agencies). They all have their own unique properties, and I can't say "huurr durrr government employees are all lazy" when it's obvious they aren't, just by looking at what the NSA does.

It's always fun to see Google introduce a new product that the NSA already made years ago...

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#476

Post by Danihan »

jcoffland wrote: post #433

Government work also suffers from over regulation. A friend of mine who works for a major defense contractor as an electrical engineer is literally not allowed to use a screwdriver driver. He must requisition a union worker for jobs involving a screwdriver. This takes tons of time and the simple job may ultimately never get done. In practice, he and his colleagues wait until after 5pm, when the union guys have gone,…

And this is why government projects are essentially doomed to fail versus capitalism, in the long-view.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#477

Post by krapp »

x14 wrote: post #452
wang_li wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>where you can wear a hoodie instead of a tie. A little off topic observation here, but people who can't handle adhering to a business professional dress code are exhibiting a low resilience personality. Not a good thing. Not to mention the reality that a button down shirt, slacks and a tie, when properly fitted, are not constrictive at all.

Some people value self-expression and would rather be judged by the quality of their work than their appearance.

Hoodies have become as much a standard of conformity as suits. You're just conforming to an unspoken requirement to appear sufficiently non-conformist.

Show up in such an environment wearing a suit and see how much your self-expression is valued.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#478

Post by itronitron »

candiodari wrote: post #377
itronitron wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like many organizations, of which NSA is one example, make the mistake of putting technical program leads in charge of people. Leading people and motivating them to do their best work together requires a different skill set, and Rogers' response to the vocalized attrition concern suggests that he isn't capable of keeping people in the organization. I appreciate that he took time to talk with staff and take que…

You misunderstood my post. No he doesn't need to listen. In fact, listening is the quickest way for him to lose his job. The fact that you even say this means you partially believe him, and that's a mistake on your part. The only signals intelligence this guy needs or wants is listening to his superiors, and his job is one-way data transmission from his boss to the rank and file. STRICTLY one-way (and trust me, it do…

Well, I agree with you about the one-way transmission. My point about listening is that I expect that a lot of their technical capability is initially developed through individual/team interest and not top-down direction so in the interest of advancing the organization's operational capabilities management should support two-way communication.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#479

Post by [deleted] »

pc86 wrote: post #370
zip1234 wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Payroll is the number 1 expense for government agencies. Easier firing would make a world of difference. I think the root cause is pensions. When people are tied to pensions for a retirement, firing people becomes a much bigger deal. Just pay a match into a retirement account and then when people can go, they go. Private sector pensions are for the most part long gone. Why should public sector keep them.

Pensions just don't make sense mathematically. If they're solvent based on the state's investments, then the employee is getting a raw deal compared to having just invested the money themselves. If they're not, then I as a taxpayer am getting a raw deal by helping to pay for someone's retirement because they worked for a state agency decades ago. My state starts doling out pensions at 5 years. A friend of mine worked…

[deleted]

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#480

Post by majormajor »

maoistinquisitr wrote: post #450
majormajor wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mandatory safety net/insurance policies make sense because what we know from experience is that if you don't have a mandated program, some people will blow it off. And as long as we don't have the political will to let them die on the street alone in poverty, it'll be very expensive to try pick up the pieces of the mess once they hit the safety net. Especially if that's something like hitting the ER needing tens of t…

It sounds reasonable in theory to collectivize this stuff, but in practice the programs all run out of money. Politicians always over promise. This happens over and over again all over the world. I see no real alternative to freedom here. Let people make their own choices. Over the long term you can't really conjure up better investment returns and better retirements for people by decree. The wealth has to be there.

Do you think the political will is there to let people die in the street?

If not, the running out of money part happens either way.

Post reply on HN