Google used a tax loophole to shelter $19.2B • Hacker News Board

Re: Google used a tax loophole to shelter $19.2B

#151

Post by dragonwriter » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 5:27 PM UTC

mywittyname wrote: post #150

ucaetano wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"please recognize them for exactly what they are: soulless, inhuman, profit maximizers that will take every inch afforded to them by the law" Let me know when you invest your savings in a company that returns lower profits because they refuse to pay lower taxes, even if they legally could. And let me know when you find a tax deduction that could save you money, but you decide to not take the deduction and pay more ta…

That didn't sound like a criticism, but a statement of the obvious: corporations are legally obligated to do anything they legally can to generate more money. My takeaway from that comment was, to expect that behavior and ensure legislators write and enact laws that establish effective corporate governance.

> That didn't sound like a criticism, but a statement of the obvious: corporations are legally obligated to do anything they legally can to generate more money.

This isn’t a “statement of the obvious”, it’s a somewhat popular misinterpretation of the fiduciary duty owed by a corporation to that corporation’s shareholders.

Re: Google used a tax loophole to shelter $19.2B

#152

Post by mywittyname » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 5:36 PM UTC

NelsonMinar wrote: post #51

Related: the new GOP tax bill makes it much cheaper for US companies to bring that money back in to the country while paying minimal taxes on it. Google's been playing offshore accounting games for 10+ years waiting for this moment of tax holiday. http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-tax-reform-plan-repatri...

The problem is companies keep getting these holidays. Investors were starting to get antsy about having all this cash tied up overseas and were starting to pressure companies into repatriating the funds.

I suspect that, had Clinton been elected, many of these companies would have bit the bullet.

Re: Google used a tax loophole to shelter $19.2B

#153

Post by mywittyname » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 5:41 PM UTC

wdn wrote: post #30

This is actually good thing. I don't know about you, I would rather Google keep more money and invest with it than handed the money to any government. What would the government do with your money? They most likely wasted it with 0 accountability. At least when Google failed, they go bully up. When government failed, they get rewarded with more money and resources.

The government will spend every penny of it on equipment and salaries, while Google will keep it tied up in a bank account for who knows how long before paying a massive premium to buy a bunch of blockchain startups just to keep Apple from acquiring them.

Re: Google used a tax loophole to shelter $19.2B

#154

Post by berberous » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 5:50 PM UTC

nradov wrote: post #117

joelg wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"There are no such things as bugs in code; the computer always executes the code as written." Loopholes and bugs are differences between intent and effect.

It's rather difficult to determine the intent of legislators, especially after some time has passed. Courts sometimes look at Congressional debate transcripts when deciding complex issues of federal law. But different congresspeople often have different conflicting intents even when they vote the same way.

Sure, especially with respect to some edge cases, and that may be an argument for not throwing people in prison that exploit certain loopholes.

On the other hand, there are certainly cases where a loophole is obviously not the intent of the legislators, and regardless of the legality of exploiting it, one could justly view exploiting it as immoral.

For example, sticking with the analogy of computer bugs, a multiplayer videogame that has an obviously unintended glitch, which lets you cheat against your fellow players.

Re: Google used a tax loophole to shelter $19.2B

#155

Post by burke » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 6:12 PM UTC

ionised wrote: post #148

burke wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Corporations literally have a legal obligation to attempt to pay as little tax as is legally possible (really, to maximize shareholder value, which might even mean paying less tax than is legally possible, as long as the expected value of the gambit is positive). The issue is not corporations taking advantage of it, the issue is that we have a system where an actor is obligated to optimize for certain variables withi…

> Corporations literally have a legal obligation to attempt to pay as little tax as is legally possible They literally do not.

I tried to find a source for this, but just ended up bewildered. There seems to be a lot of conflicting information on this. For example: https://www.litigationandtrial.com/2010/09/articles/series/s...

Re: Google used a tax loophole to shelter $19.2B

#156

Post by yuhong » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 7:51 PM UTC

As a side note, I wonder if this is why Eric Schmidt left Google: https://citizensagainstmonopoly.org/

Re: Google used a tax loophole to shelter $19.2B

#157

Post by notliketherest » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 8:55 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #130

notliketherest wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LOL saas_co_de accuses Google of engaging in a sham business.

We've banned this account for repeatedly violating the HN guidelines. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Fuck you and your bubble world.

Re: Google used a tax loophole to shelter $19.2B

#158

Post by oh_sigh » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 10:05 PM UTC

dkural wrote: post #86

super-serial wrote: post #79

Bloomberg likes to write about how "tech companies do this" whenever it's something bad. The fact is all companies do this... it's well-known every industry is doing the same. Walmart, Exxon and Pfizer are just a few companies that tax-dodge just as much as Google. It's estimated $700 billion in taxes are dodged so singling out Google's $19 billion seems strange. https://americansfortaxfairness.org/corporate-tax-char…

Yes, but they don't have the "don't be evil" motto, or executives claiming some vague moral superiority to rest of the corporate world in "making the world a better place".

Google doesn't have that either

Re: Google used a tax loophole to shelter $19.2B

#159

Post by oh_sigh » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 10:06 PM UTC

c22 wrote: post #76

cantrip wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Do you think shareholders would stand for a company paying $19.2B more in taxes than they should? That would be absurdly negligent on the part of everyone leading the company. Would an individual pay $500 more in taxes than they are required to out of the goodness of their heart and belief in the American government? Don't indict corporations for following the tax code, change the laws.

> Would an individual pay $500 more in taxes than they are required to out of the goodness of their heart and belief in the American government? I've done it. I also let the shopkeepers make "mistaken" change when I visited Nepal. Sometimes I tip $5 even when I buy less than $25 worth of food at a restaurant. Maybe I'm a moron, but I think of money as a tool and when I can afford it I am happy to help others accompli…

I notice you give direct person to person examples, but you never talk about how you paid more in taxes than you needed to.

Do you think $500 extra to the federal government will do as much good as you directing that $500 to specific individuals or families that could really use it?

Re: Google used a tax loophole to shelter $19.2B

#160

Post by xenomachina » Thu, Jan 04, 2018, 8:08 AM UTC

dkural wrote: post #132

WalterBright wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google/corporations as whole regularly do spend their money on lobbying/political pursuits. Larger corporations don't have much choice, they have to do it just to keep from getting run over by politicians.

By "run over", you surely mean getting to serve in the best interest of citizens, who elect those politicians. Instead of doing what's democratically decided, they'd rather legally bribe politicians to get the laws written to benefit their narrow interests. This is the very definition of private interest overriding and buying their way over public good.

> Instead of doing what's democratically decided

Did you mean "instead of doing what's decided by competing lobbyists"? I completely agree that lobbying should not exist, but in a system where it does, trying to get by without doing it yourself might be disastrous if you're going up against those who have no such qualms.