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Stimulus: A modest JavaScript framework for the HTML you already have

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Re: Stimulus: A modest JavaScript framework for the HTML you already have

#91

Post by JoshMnem »

jakecopp wrote: post #86
JoshMnem wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Turbolinks are not good for usability. They appear to make the pages painfully slow on slower connections. They add a loading bar across the top which can have different meanings depending on the site and browser: - some browsers add a bar across the top to indicate page loading progress (example: Firefox for Android) - some websites add a bar across the top to indicate how far you've read in an article - turbolinks…

I haven't tried out Turbolinks yet, however wouldn't the developer implementing Turbolinks make sure they don't have a progress bar along the top for another purpose first? I think users would understand it is a loading bar and not a reading progress bar if it only appears after a link is clicked. Also, if Turbolinks is implemented will Firefox on Android still display a second progress bar? I ask these questions as…

I doubt that people think much when they implement Turbolinks. It's built into rails by default so you have to go out of your way to disable it (--skip-turbolinks).

I think that a loading bar across the top of a web page shouldn't have multiple meanings. For consistent signaling to the user about what the browser is doing, the browser should take care of telling the user what action is being performed (loading).

Re: Stimulus: A modest JavaScript framework for the HTML you already have

#92

Post by dang »

itwy wrote: post #42
meesterdude wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because they have different ideas and opinions than yours, does not make them in any way wrong or legacy, or unsolid or incorrect. Also, basecamp has been rewritten 3 times.

Try to discuss the idea not my personal opinion.

Would you please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and do a better job of abiding by the rules here? Please post civilly and substantively, or not at all.

Re: Stimulus: A modest JavaScript framework for the HTML you already have

#93

Post by jbbarth »

JoshMnem wrote: post #81
sheraz wrote: post #25

I think this, along with its sibling Turbolinks [1], is filling a much needed gap with regards to complexity in these javascript frameworks. Myself, I've been playing with intercoolerjs [2] for a few weeks, and it is quite refreshing. These are great libraries for small full-stack teams who do not want to get lost in the complexity of front-end stuff like react, webpack, etc. [1] - https://github.com/turbolinks/turbo…

Turbolinks are not good for usability. They appear to make the pages painfully slow on slower connections. They add a loading bar across the top which can have different meanings depending on the site and browser: - some browsers add a bar across the top to indicate page loading progress (example: Firefox for Android) - some websites add a bar across the top to indicate how far you've read in an article - turbolinks…

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater maybe? Here's a fixed version of your statement:

"The default Turbolinks progress bar that can be removed with one line of CSS gives the impression that things are slow on slow connections."

Turbolinks is not perfect and has some drawbacks, but it also makes things faster in 99% (100%?) cases in my experience for almost 0 development effort.

Re: Stimulus: A modest JavaScript framework for the HTML you already have

#94

Post by z3t4 »

nailer wrote: post #21
z3t4 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does ES6, Jquery, Handlebars, Bootstrap and Angular 2 buy you ?

Better built ins and direct style, standardised DOM before it existed, grid layouts before they existed and widgets, a virtual DOM which updates when your data does. What's your point?

For me they just get in the way, they add unnecessary hurdles to dev and slows down the page performance and load time. I currently work with dev-ops and is always interested to hear about peoples pain-points and try to figure out how to solve them in a more lean way.

Re: Stimulus: A modest JavaScript framework for the HTML you already have

#95

Post by triskweline »

cyberferret wrote: post #84
triskweline wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you enjoy working with intercooler.js but are looking for a bit more power, check out Unpoly [1]. [1]: https://unpoly.com

Thanks for the heads up. I've worked with Intercooler before and while it is a really nice framework, I've always felt it was missing a few critical things. Unpoly looks cool. Do you know if it has a dependency on jQuery still, like Intercooler does? Or does it run independently?

Unpoly currently depends on jQuery. Work is being done to remove that dependency eventually, but that will take time.

Re: Stimulus: A modest JavaScript framework for the HTML you already have

#96

Post by nailer »

z3t4 wrote: post #94
nailer wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Better built ins and direct style, standardised DOM before it existed, grid layouts before they existed and widgets, a virtual DOM which updates when your data does. What's your point?

For me they just get in the way, they add unnecessary hurdles to dev and slows down the page performance and load time. I currently work with dev-ops and is always interested to hear about peoples pain-points and try to figure out how to solve them in a more lean way.

Well yes, since except templating and data binding they're all included out of the box now. But the ones that aren't are useful.

Re: Stimulus: A modest JavaScript framework for the HTML you already have

#97

Post by andrewingram »

meesterdude wrote: post #36
andrewingram wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It bothers me a bit that it feels intentionally dismissive of (or oblivious to) the current state-of-the-art of JavaScript frameworks. None of the criticism mentioned feel like an honest reflection of my last two years working with React (4 years total). Universal rendering is mainstream, there are plenty of options for vastly simplifying initial setup and overall complexity (eg Next.js). From what I understand, simi…

> Universal rendering is mainstream, there are plenty of options for vastly simplifying initial setup and overall complexity > arguing for its place in the world of 2-3 years ago, rather than the present-day. Basecamp pays particular focus to productivity, developer happiness, and staying small. It is through these tenants that they use tools and develop new ones. They are dismissive of frontend JS frameworks because…

I pick my stack based on the same principles. The reason why I was so excited about React, GraphQL etc was that I felt it was finally realistic for me to be able to work solo on my side projects.

Re: Stimulus: A modest JavaScript framework for the HTML you already have

#98

Post by ksec »

JoshMnem wrote: post #90
jacobsenscott wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've used turbolinks in production and it is great. The progress bar is clunky, but it is optional, and not needed anyway if your pages render in a reasonable amount of time (100ms to 200ms is "instant" to most people). I can't really fathom how the parent to your post saw a slowdown using turbolinks - because the server doesn't know the difference, and the client does less work.

Turbolinks is often a terrible user experience. The user doesn't measure page load in seconds, but in the perceived load in seconds. Turbolinks on slow connections feels painful, including on big sites with fast servers, like YouTube and Github.

Can you define what do you mean by slow connection?

Re: Stimulus: A modest JavaScript framework for the HTML you already have

#99

Post by javan »

andrei_says_ wrote: post #80
c8d3f7b49897918 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for the kind words about intercooler.js. :) If you are interested in some reading on the theory behind it, I recommend these two blog posts that explain how HTML and REST/HATEOAS hang together better than Javascript with JSON: http://intercoolerjs.org/2016/01/18/rescuing-rest.html http://intercoolerjs.org/2016/05/08/hatoeas-is-for-humans.ht...

I am really liking intercoolerjs and noticing that Stimulus will not work with IE11 which I need to support. What is the browser support for intercoolerjs?

> noticing that Stimulus will not work with IE11 which I need to support

See: https://github.com/stimulusjs/stimulus/blob/master/INSTALLIN...

Re: Stimulus: A modest JavaScript framework for the HTML you already have

#100

Post by NoGravitas »

cyberferret wrote: post #84
triskweline wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you enjoy working with intercooler.js but are looking for a bit more power, check out Unpoly [1]. [1]: https://unpoly.com

Thanks for the heads up. I've worked with Intercooler before and while it is a really nice framework, I've always felt it was missing a few critical things. Unpoly looks cool. Do you know if it has a dependency on jQuery still, like Intercooler does? Or does it run independently?

Small correction: intercooler works with either jQuery or zepto.
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