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Ask HN: All startup websites look the same

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Re: Ask HN: All startup websites look the same

#41

Post by jlgosse »

lovskogen wrote: post #33
jdietrich wrote: post #27

The important stuff in the common design pattern has been tested to death - everyone who matters is using clicktracking, a/b/x testing and deep user analytics. The reason they all look the same is the same reason that all infomercials or porn sites use the same basic structure - that's what testing indicates will convert best. Some people know this empirically, some are just blindly aping the fashion, but there is wa…

A lot of people will hit The Back Button if you don't use a sans serif font? Come on.

I'm willing to bet that the average person can't even tell the difference between Serif and Sans Serif typefaces. Not that this will have an effect on their self-conscious, but it's definitely worth something.

Re: Ask HN: All startup websites look the same

#42

Post by alextgordon »

sliverstorm wrote: post #19
panacea wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good design is about form following function, and is very dependent on the technology available, you're right. It's not arbitrary however. Here are some essentially inviolate principles of good design: http://graphicdesign.spokanefalls.edu/tutorials/process/gest...

You have to admit that while some principles are not arbitrary, there are definite design styles or trends that go in and out of vogue, and at the time everyone was convinced they were good design.

That doesn't mean they weren't. User familiarity is a big part of good design, so playing to the current trend may well make your thing easier to use.

For example, there's no reason why search boxes should have rounded corners - it's just an arbitrary style. But since users are familiar with rounded search boxes, using them could make your site easier to use.

Re: Ask HN: All startup websites look the same

#43

Post by ximeng »

phugoid wrote: post #30
jmtame wrote: post #22

i was one of the designers on loopt.com, and the reason i think most of these sites look the same is because we all go through y combinator hearing the same thing: "the number one enemy is the back button." we just don't have time to overload the home pages with too much stuff if we intend on someone doing something while they're on it. so i think all styles gravitate towards a similar highly-focused product-oriented…

That's what I was looking for. I was hoping the conversation would bring up some new approach or tech. This is the first I hear of CSS grid frameworks - I must look into them further. Edit: By the way, your site looks great to me. I was trying to get at the thinking behind these designs, not to criticize.

Here's that link for 960 grid: http://960.gs/

They have lots of layouts on that page.

Re: Ask HN: All startup websites look the same

#44

Post by mechanical_fish »

DrJokepu wrote: post #40
Luyt wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On paper, serifs can be printed with enough resolution to aid in readability. On screens however, serifs are rendered too coarse and distract. That's why with current screen resolutions, sans serif works better for screen type.

I stand by my assertion that this is a myth. Maybe for small font sizes it matters, but on modern displays, on medium font sizes, in the age of sub-pixel rendering, it shouldn't.

I went Googling for science on this subject and promptly found a review of the usability literature:

http://www.alexpoole.info/academic/literaturereview.html

and a second study:

http://www.unc.edu/~jkullama/inls181/final/serif.html

And a poll of user preferences:

http://www.wilsonweb.com/wmt6/html-email-fonts.htm

The apparent conclusion:

Serifs hsve a small-to-nonexistent effect on the readability of digital text, one way or the other.

However, other qualities like x-height and letter spacing do make a difference. In a Times New Roman vs Arial battle, Arial tends to come out on top. But that may well be because it has a larger x-height.

When you poll users on their preferences they love sans-serif fonts. But a big part of the problem is that so few serif fonts come installed in all browsers. Times New Roman seems to be a poor screen font, and Georgia is better but isn't installed everywhere. In short, the fact that we prefer sans serif fonts for the web may be an artifact of our crappy selection of web fonts.

It will be very interesting to see if and when serifs stage a comeback in the era of 300dpi displays and, more importantly, a much larger choice of fonts.

Re: Ask HN: All startup websites look the same

#45

Post by alinajaf »

jlgosse wrote: post #41
lovskogen wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of people will hit The Back Button if you don't use a sans serif font? Come on.

I'm willing to bet that the average person can't even tell the difference between Serif and Sans Serif typefaces. Not that this will have an effect on their self-conscious, but it's definitely worth something.

I think you mean subconscious.

Re: Ask HN: All startup websites look the same

#46

Post by SRSimko »

philwelch wrote: post #9
mishmash wrote: post #5

Don't know the exact origin (37signals?), but they all probably descend from a common ancestor - which was probably very successful, hence the copying. Analogy would be how many big box stores (eg. Home Depot) routinely build next to Wal-Mart, because of course Wal-Mart, Inc. spends millions on and has "location, location, location" down to a science.

Don't know if it's true, but there's a cute urban legend about the location thing. Apparently, McDonald's franchise location strategy always used to be to analyze all kinds of variables to find the most cost-effective location in a given area. Burger King's strategy was always to build right next to McDonald's. Of course, for various game-theoretic reasons, the optimal location for competing businesses is usually rig…

I read something similar about Starbucks. Their approach is or was to be located next to a dry cleaner or movie rental business (when they existed). The thought was that people have to go to those stores twice to drop-off and pick-up and they thought it increased the chances that people would stop in for a coffee.

Re: Ask HN: All startup websites look the same

#48

Post by btilly »

SRSimko wrote: post #46
philwelch wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't know if it's true, but there's a cute urban legend about the location thing. Apparently, McDonald's franchise location strategy always used to be to analyze all kinds of variables to find the most cost-effective location in a given area. Burger King's strategy was always to build right next to McDonald's. Of course, for various game-theoretic reasons, the optimal location for competing businesses is usually rig…

I read something similar about Starbucks. Their approach is or was to be located next to a dry cleaner or movie rental business (when they existed). The thought was that people have to go to those stores twice to drop-off and pick-up and they thought it increased the chances that people would stop in for a coffee.

I read something else similar involving Starbucks. Apparently other coffee chains have taken the strategy of building next to Starbucks. The thinking is to let Starbucks pay for marketing, then when the lines are long at Starbucks, people will try the rival instead. Some will prefer it, and so a customer is born.

Re: Ask HN: All startup websites look the same

#49

Post by arnorhs »

I'm sorry for sounding a bit like a troll, but the number of votes this article is getting is surprising. Let me elaborate:

--

All newspapers look the same to me. I don't have designer chops to explain it clearly, but the main style is:

A whole lot of white and no other colors except in the advertisements.

They all use a lot of text to portray their information and they always use black for the text.

They all have the most noteworthy news stories on the front page and with less serious news in the back of the paper. etc...

Re: Ask HN: All startup websites look the same

#50

Post by fauigerzigerk »

jdietrich wrote: post #27

The important stuff in the common design pattern has been tested to death - everyone who matters is using clicktracking, a/b/x testing and deep user analytics. The reason they all look the same is the same reason that all infomercials or porn sites use the same basic structure - that's what testing indicates will convert best. Some people know this empirically, some are just blindly aping the fashion, but there is wa…

You can only a/b test what you have come up with in the first place. This is not convergence on the optimum. It's just slightly optimized fashion.
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