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A wall of lava lamps helps encrypt the internet

atlasobscura.com

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Re: A wall of lava lamps helps encrypt the internet

#131
post #17

I might be prejudiced, but this looks like a big PR stunt/done for the cool factor kind of thing. Aren't there simpler/saner alternatives for getting good randomness?

There are plenty of simpler sources of high quality randomness. The important bit is whitening. Virtually all measurements of anything are not as precise as the number of bits used to represent the sample.

Virtually any sensor measuring real world data will be imprecise in the last 1-4 bits. Take 256 raw samples from virtually any real world sensor, run the raw data through SHA-256, voila, you have 256 random bits that's secure against the overwhelming majority of hackers. Take 256,000 samples, run the raw data through SHA-256, now you have 256 random bits that's secure against the NSA.

Cameras are great for this, but first you have to ensure that you're getting the raw data and not an image processed with HDR or jpeg compression or whatever special sauce Google/Apple do these days, and you also have to test to ensure that the image isn't overexposed. If it's an 8 bit sensor and all pixels are pegged at 255 you don't have useful randomness. Although the opposite isn't true: it's impossible to peg all pixels at 0. You'll always get values of 1-10 or so with the same pixels fluctuating +/- 1 or so, even in a perfect darkroom with perfect insulation from cosmic rays and background radiation.

The average smartphone is packed full of gadgets that could be used to generate random data after running it through whitening. Accelerometers, magnetic compass, capacitance of each pixel of the touch sensor, all the radio antennas pulling atmospheric noise, (CDMA, GSM, GPS, bluetooth ...) microphone, camera...

The lava lamps themselves might make the process more efficient, because now some of the higher order bits are random as well. But honestly, from a realistic security standpoint... they're just as well off taking pictures of a blank, uniformly lit white wall. As long as they do whitening properly.

edit: It's still super cool though. Just not... in terms of temperature. It's probably really hot.

Re: A wall of lava lamps helps encrypt the internet

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

presumably if you set up camp with a camera in their lava lamp room, somebody is going to raise some eyebrows.

Not only that but your cameras are going to have to be precisely in the same place as theirs, with an identical view and be identical models with identical sensor variation, dust on lens etc etc etc ad nauseam. As you say, that might raise a few eyebrows.

Wouldn't you just cover their camera with paper or some other known pattern, if you were going to try that?

Re: A wall of lava lamps helps encrypt the internet

#133
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We're not the first ones to do this. Our LavaRand system was inspired by a similar system first proposed and built by Silicon Graphics and patented in 1996 (the patent has since expired). -- https://blog.cloudflare.com/randomness-101-lavarand-in-produ...

I know that people patent things for various reasons but would people truly expect the holder of that patent to litigate against another company using that method to ensure "more true" randomness in whatever application they were using? I, personally, imagine the patent holder would be glad to see others using their method to ensure true randomness so long as they were using the technology for anything other than evi…

It’s a useful technology that they spent the time and money to patent. There’s no reason to assume anything about the intent of the patent holders.

Re: A wall of lava lamps helps encrypt the internet

#134
One of my common daydreams is designing entropy-generating setups like this. Just last week I went on a brewery tour (Bell's) and stared at the bottling plant for a while, admiring the chaos of the bottles bumping into each other as the path turns and narrows.

Re: A wall of lava lamps helps encrypt the internet

#135
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it was a public art installation, wouldn't that leak their entropy?

You’d have to get a picture in the exact same angle, which is unlikely.

You’d also have to be using very similar equipment and know precisely how they derive their random numbers from the image.

Re: A wall of lava lamps helps encrypt the internet

#137
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're confusing the medium with which this achieved versus it's utility. Surely you're not suggesting PRNG/DRBG isn't completely safe from hacking?

I don't even understand this question. Can you reword it?

Sure. I'm struggling to understand what utility your questioning. Is is it the fact that they are using a hardware based random generator or the way in which they are using a hardware generator (e.g. lava lamps)?

If the former - my question would be - surely you, as a security expert, would agree that a hardware random generator is more secure than a software based one (PseudoRandomNumberGenerator or DeterministicRandomBitGenerator)?

If the latter - why does the way in which they use a hardware generator matter as long as it provides some utility and advantage over a software-based one which has a deterministic set of numbers?

Re: A wall of lava lamps helps encrypt the internet

#138
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only that but your cameras are going to have to be precisely in the same place as theirs, with an identical view and be identical models with identical sensor variation, dust on lens etc etc etc ad nauseam. As you say, that might raise a few eyebrows.

Wouldn't you just cover their camera with paper or some other known pattern, if you were going to try that?

Ooh! Can you shine a laser into the camera to blind it? Burn the sensor to a crisp and then let that seed the CSPRNG!

Re: A wall of lava lamps helps encrypt the internet

#139
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is unlikely that it holds any utility, or that it is practical in any capacity.

tptacek is right. It's a cool art installation, but for practical purposes this is utterly useless. A modern hardware RNG (which is entirely silicon based) generates random bits at a vastly higher rate, and with better reliability, like built-in continuous statistical tests, than something rigged together with lava lamps, Geiger counters or the like. I've built those kinds of science projects, and they are great for…

> but they are not practical or necessary in any production environment

But do they provide any greater advantage or greater utility to your "science projects" other than being cheaper to run? What do higher rates and higher reliability have to do with being able to create a non-deterministic and thus truly random bit? In other words, how on earth would a hacker even conceivably be able to hack the lava lamp setup?

Re: A wall of lava lamps helps encrypt the internet

#140
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We're not the first ones to do this. Our LavaRand system was inspired by a similar system first proposed and built by Silicon Graphics and patented in 1996 (the patent has since expired). -- https://blog.cloudflare.com/randomness-101-lavarand-in-produ...

I know that people patent things for various reasons but would people truly expect the holder of that patent to litigate against another company using that method to ensure "more true" randomness in whatever application they were using? I, personally, imagine the patent holder would be glad to see others using their method to ensure true randomness so long as they were using the technology for anything other than evi…

Well, I’d expect the patent-holder to want to make money.
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