Earlier quoted context omitted.
To your point about non-lethal weapons: it seems to me that we haven't yet claimed the low-hanging fruit in the US when it comes to this problem. Why not indulge the most base impulses of both silicon valley and police militarization with high tech, non lethal weapons? It will probably introduce new problems, such as even more unnecessary use of force. It addresses absolutely none of the cultural or institutional pro…
A Taser can kill. Removing the presumption that you are shooting to kill seems like it would make the police more readily, and in more situations, use the weapons, so I'm not sure it's clear that a switch to less-lethal weapons would be a net positive (in terms of deaths).
LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police
801–810 of 864 posts
Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police
#802Earlier quoted context omitted.
>More police are killed in traffic accidents than in violent confrontations. When you factor out traffic accidents in police deaths, being a cop is actually one of the safer jobs in North America. Love to see the stats on that. Either way you wouldn't get me doing a cops job in America without a gun, for obvious reasons. >All your bullshit about putting your life on the line is just psyching yourself up to shoot peop…
Just for context: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-42529424 Of course cops don't put their lives on the line. Now let's all slag off those cops, because let's face it they deserved what happened to them didn't they!
Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police
#803Earlier quoted context omitted.
One thing that gets overlooked in police shootings is innocent bystanders as an aside to the people getting shot by police, justified or not. Imagine the person that called the police to investigate someone with a possible weapon in a hotel, moments later police show up in SWAT gear with AR-15s and discharge them in the hallway, with many other rooms around, and kill an innocent man. Worse, bullets could have gone in…
That happened in New Zealand a few years ago. The police missed their target (an actual active shooter running on foot) and instead killed the driver of a nearby van. I don't know how you can be trained to use a gun and not learn about looking at what you're shooting it at.
Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police
#804Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you really mean what you are saying, then you seem to be suggesting that police armed with butter knives, tazers, or guns all represent exactly equally dangerous situations that can't be distinguished from one another. It's not just lethality, but it's also not just the way police respond, because it's not one or the the other. If you don't agree that the lethality of the weapon is a significant input to whether o…
I'm mostly replying to the thread at large, which started with lb1lf pointing out that the police response was the problem, and this side-thread is now bogged down in the quagmire of arguing what constitutes as a non-lethal and lethal weapon. Of course the weapon in question is also a variable, but I by far the biggest variable is police behavior in the US, where it seems every situation calls for force escalation an…
I think you're right that escalating behavior is a significant variable. But I think that's a very tough thing to change. It may be that the low hanging fruit consists in changing the equipment rather than the culture. But I don't disagree with you in the big picture.
Anyway, I'll be careful not to assume your comments are attempting to be responsive to the things they reply to when I see them in the future, to prevent my misunderstanding.
Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police
#805Earlier quoted context omitted.
> See, I want to send my kids to school and be reasonably sure that some idiot can’t go down the street, buy a couple of rifles, and murder them and their classmates. Everybody does. Let's not be disingenuous, though: the chances one of our children dies from a gunshot wound at school is incredibly small. By my counts, 4 students have been killed at school shootings this year. 4 students out of ~50 million kids at ov…
That's 4 more students dying in school shootings more than in Europe for example.
Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police
#806Earlier quoted context omitted.
This mindset is exactly what's wrong with policing in America. Every single part of training seems to be designed for worst case scenarios. There's no room for common sense or judgment.
Because if you consider average case scenarios, logic will inevitably force you to make a choice: what percentage of cops should die during their career? The police chiefs decided the answer is zero. That leads to extreme aggressive tactics. Too bad the owners of mines, oil rigs, logging operations, etc. don't share a similar concern for their employees' lives.
Mining, logging, etc. certainly make trade-offs, but at least the trade-off is between safety and the viability of the business. The trade-offs that cops have made are between safety and indefensible political goals.
Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police
#807Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ostensibly because he reached for his waistband instead of immediately putting up his hands.
Having seen the video, it looked more like he was trying to shield his eyes from the light the police was shining directly at him _from across the street_. I don't know why this isn't reported more accurately, they shot the guy from what looks like a good 20-30 meters away.
Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police
#808Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ironically, militarized police training teaches the exact opposite: the officer must protect their lives and the lives of their fellow officers above all else.
Source?
Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police
#809Earlier quoted context omitted.
This was my immediate reaction. My guess is that the blame and punishment will all be laser focused on the caller, in an attempt to avoid a public outcry for the actual shooter’s head. That cop shouldn’t be on administrative leave, he should be in jail for murder.
Should cops have to wait until they are actually being gunned down before they can use force to protect themselves? What happened was an absolute tragedy, and every measure should be taken to avoid anything like that ever happening again. The shooting was not justified, and cops need better training, non-lethal options must be expanded, penalties for this kind of "prank" must be made harsher. Everyone agrees on that.…
Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police
#810Earlier quoted context omitted.
The one time I was arrested (for illegal use of a roadway during a protest), during the post arrest search of my belongings, the cop searching made some comment about something in my bag and I turned my head (I was facing a wall) to reply, for which he immediately shoved my face back into the wall and said "You're not allowed to move - my safety is more important than yours". Keep in mind, this is in a police station…
Look up a Youtube channel called PoliceActivity . It is a collection of dashcam/bodycam videos of US police involved in some kind of shooting/assault. They are not edited down to fit a news report so videos usually last 10-30 minutes. Some show cops stealing money/drug from suspects and US media actually showed such clips in news reports. But lots of the videos show actual circumstances leading up to shooting by poli…
I was actually watching a bunch of videos on this very channel the day before last. And I totally agree with your characterization of it. It did make me more sympathetic to cops as individual people with hard jobs, seeing all the crazy bullshit people put cops through on a daily basis.
But it doesn't negate my critique that there's a systematic flaw in the way police are trained. I don't hold the individual cops to blame for acting as they've been trained. but in watching a lot of the videos I get the sense that because of the warrior mentality of the cop, they simply cannot allow themselves to opt for the de-escalatory path, because they think failing to dominate a situation will put themselves at risk. Which may be true in many of the situations!
But why is this? Why are there criminals who are willing to initiate gun violence against police, despite the overwhelmingly bad odds against that ending well for them?
It's a complex question, but I suspect one significant factor is because they have also been trained indirectly by the warrior mentality of other police they've encountered or observed. I think it's fair to say almost all people who pull guns on cops are not having their first brush with the law. They know that once a encounter with a police officer becomes adversarial, the only possible outcomes are: suspect in custody, suspect dead, or suspect escaped by incapacitating the officer. People hate to lose control, and being seconds away from indefinite, total loss of control over your life on the shoulder of a road creates a situation quite analogous to the first strike problem in nuclear strategy. Except unlike in potential nuclear conflicts, the initial deployment of force is a very common eventuality so the perceived need for counterforce is that much higher.
Now admittedly, the warrior mentality isn't the root cause of this dynamic - criminals on the run would still have a first strike incentive during encounters with police, but the presence of a warrior officer ratchets up the potential for escalation nonetheless, because the criminal is now credibly worried about losing their life in addition to losing their freedom.
I don't know where to go with this, but, the point I wanted to make is we can both maintain respect for police as individuals and critique the aspects of police institutional culture that exacerbate these problems.