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LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

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Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#781

Post by v64 »

caf wrote: post #676
v64 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So - the demonstrations following some police shootings aside, is there any significant push in the US to drive the police towards less lethal encounters with the public it is to serve and protect? I'm from the southern US, which is historically more conservative than the rest of the country. I'm not in any way claiming that the following viewpoints are universal and accepted in this region, but a large enough port…

How's that apply to the case of Justine Damond?

Unfortunately, because the officer was Somali and named Mohamed, I've heard nothing but bigotry back home regarding this case. "Wouldn't have happened if the officer was white", etc. If the officer had been white, I could envision the following responses, in order of likelihood:

1) Damond must have done something unusual or stupid to cause the officer to fire on her, making it her fault, because what officer would be threatened by a Pretty White Woman?

2) As mentioned above, officers make mistakes, and this is a terrible tragedy, but they put their lives on the line every day and they were trying to do the right thing, so we can't punish them for this.

3) This is one of the "rare" cases of actual police brutality and the cop deserves to go to jail for murder.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#782

Post by Abishek_Muthian »

borplk wrote: post #716
Abishek_Muthian wrote: post #594

I think a machine learning assisted scene assessment could be more accurate in this scenario. Considering AI is better at image processing than humans, finding whether the subject in the view point is carrying a weapon should be able to give the officers a second opinion when needed under these circumstances.

Classic HN. Let's throw some ML & AI & DL at it. Don't forget to take your TensorFlow with you.

Not trying to show any wit here. Considering that a mistake in identifying whether a weapon is held by a person ended in tragedy and that modern force are equipped with displays on their rifles; I asked whether ML based solutions can help.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#783

Post by Tempest1981 »

Some interesting excerpts from https://newrepublic.com/article/126473/american-cops-100-tim...

- By contrast (to the US), national standards in most European countries conform to the European Convention on Human Rights, which impels its 47 signatories to permit only deadly force that is “absolutely necessary” to achieve a lawful purpose.

- Killings excused under America’s “reasonable belief” standards often violate Europe’s “absolute necessity” standards.

- In Europe, killing is considered unnecessary if alternatives exist. For example, national guidelines in Spain would have prescribed that Wilson incrementally pursue verbal warnings, warning shots, and shots at nonvital parts of the body before resorting to deadly force.

- In the US, only eight states require verbal warnings (when possible), while warning and leg shots are typically prohibited.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#784

Post by goblins »

goblins wrote: post #709
fatbird wrote: post #666

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More police are killed in traffic accidents than in violent confrontations. When you factor out traffic accidents in police deaths, being a cop is actually one of the safer jobs in North America. All your bullshit about putting your life on the line is just psyching yourself up to shoot people. Cops don't put their life on the line. They sometimes get killed by people for no reason, but in smaller numbers than civili…

>More police are killed in traffic accidents than in violent confrontations. When you factor out traffic accidents in police deaths, being a cop is actually one of the safer jobs in North America. Love to see the stats on that. Either way you wouldn't get me doing a cops job in America without a gun, for obvious reasons. >All your bullshit about putting your life on the line is just psyching yourself up to shoot peop…

Just for context: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-42529424

Of course cops don't put their lives on the line. Now let's all slag off those cops, because let's face it they deserved what happened to them didn't they!

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#785

Post by mannykannot »

brucephillips wrote: post #776
mannykannot wrote: post #736

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can you really not imagine a situation where a cop would reasonably fear for their life? Really? This is just a blatant straw-man argument. The real issue is whether unreasonable claims that an officer acted out of a fear for his life should effectively be 'get out of jail' cards.

> This is just a blatant straw-man argument No, it's not. OP said "Precisely why the "feared for my life" defense of police execution has to be ended". It's difficult to have a reasoned discussion when you don't read.

It is rather ironic that you should write that, when the poster had already clarified his meaning (for those who had not realized it from the context in which it was originally made) and in the very post to which you were replying, no less.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#786

Post by oh_sigh »

valuearb wrote: post #314
oh_sigh wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A single anonymous source on a non-911 number without corroborating reports of gunfire is not sufficient cause to shoot a man on his porch. No one is arguing that. > Here's an idea -- fly a drone around the house and look in some windows. Knock on a neighbors door and ask if they heard a gunshot. That sounds great. Until there is an actual hostage situation, and police waste their time doing this and a hostage is k…

This isn't the movies, cops should never be kicking down the door in a hostage situation. They should be guarding the perimeter and trying to talk to the perpetrator.

I'm curious - how much training do you have in SWAT tactics? Where did you get it from?

Assuming it is zero, would you in whatever field you are in accept advice from someone who has zero experience in the field?

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#787

Post by brucephillips »

mannykannot wrote: post #785
brucephillips wrote: post #776

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is just a blatant straw-man argument No, it's not. OP said "Precisely why the "feared for my life" defense of police execution has to be ended". It's difficult to have a reasoned discussion when you don't read.

It is rather ironic that you should write that, when the poster had already clarified his meaning (for those who had not realized it from the context in which it was originally made) and in the very post to which you were replying, no less.

It's not "clarifying" when it's inconsistent with what he first said.

And it doesn't make your strawman accusation any less incorrect.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#788

Post by vidarh »

JupiterMoon wrote: post #718
vidarh wrote: post #687

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general so many things can be misunderstood. E.g. when Jean Charles de Menezes was shot by anti-terror police in London who mistook him for a potential suicide bomber, one of the things brought up was how he got up from his seat in a rapid motion by lifting his arms in front of him to shift his point of gravity. It stands out to me because they thought it was weird, but to me it's just the easiest way to get up wh…

The initial claims made about Jean Charles de Menezes included that he ran, he jumped the barrier, he did not buy a ticket, he was wearing a thick jacket. In reality he walked, bought a ticket, used the barrier normally and was wearing a t-shirt. This is visible on the cctv footage.

Yes, but the part I'm specifically talking about was how he got up from the seat on the tube when confronted in a way the officer in question thought was aggressive, but that in reality is something you often see on the tube. There's no doubt there was lots of bullshit coming from the police over it too, but that he stood up was one of the few claims the jury in the inquest agree was proven, an it stands out because the testimony relating to it as far as I remember made the officer seem genuinely to not realize why someone might get up that way, which is quite unlike their other excuses in that it exposes ignorance compared to the other attempts to describe things in a way that could have actually contributed to giving them an excuse.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#789

Post by vidarh »

tomxor wrote: post #726
vidarh wrote: post #685

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This to me seems to be the big difference between US policing and what we're used to in e.g. most European countries: A focus on quick resolution at all cost rather than peaceful resolution. UK police for example tends to respond with overwhelming force, clear the area if possible, and contain their potential adversary, and if possible often wait the situation out. They will use violence if they have to, but it ends…

> police defaults to avoid violence, and defaults to not even carry guns. I think this might be more of a difference between the legality of guns in the US and UK. Guns are so rare in the UK because they are illegal to own for almost everyone. I can imagine that makes a big difference for a police officer's expectation of the likely potential danger of public adversaries... yes there are still knives and acid and wha…

That would affect incidents where the police is not yet sure whether they're meeting someone armed, but the de-escalation is generally adhered to when firearms teams are brought in too - which are generally situations where they know they're dealing with an armed suspect.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#790

Post by averagewall »

drawkbox wrote: post #780
danso wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems to me to be what happened in the Daniel Shaver case, who was drunk and in his pajamas when police (responding to a report of a brandished gun being spotted in his motel room window) confronted him. He was facedown and yelled at for ~4 minutes before being shot when officers mistook him pulling up his waistband for reaching for a weapon: https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/12/09/us/police-shooting-vid... The of…

One thing that gets overlooked in police shootings is innocent bystanders as an aside to the people getting shot by police, justified or not. Imagine the person that called the police to investigate someone with a possible weapon in a hotel, moments later police show up in SWAT gear with AR-15s and discharge them in the hallway, with many other rooms around, and kill an innocent man. Worse, bullets could have gone in…

That happened in New Zealand a few years ago. The police missed their target (an actual active shooter running on foot) and instead killed the driver of a nearby van. I don't know how you can be trained to use a gun and not learn about looking at what you're shooting it at.
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