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A wall of lava lamps helps encrypt the internet

atlasobscura.com

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Re: A wall of lava lamps helps encrypt the internet

#41

Post by Waterluvian »

samuel wrote: post #17

I might be prejudiced, but this looks like a big PR stunt/done for the cool factor kind of thing. Aren't there simpler/saner alternatives for getting good randomness?

The best kind of fun is good clean wholesome fun. I love when we take a "detour" at work to do something in a fun way.

Re: A wall of lava lamps helps encrypt the internet

#43

Post by firethief »

xg15 wrote: post #33

Assuming this is not a PR stunt: Wouldn't different lighting conditions throughout the day lead to patterns in the randomness?

Another pattern is the bases of the lamps rarely change. Patterns are OK; the important thing is that unpredictable components are present.

Re: A wall of lava lamps helps encrypt the internet

#44

Post by comboy »

MBCook wrote: post #24
comboy wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

busy streets webcams?

That would be susceptible to traffic patterns.

Cars don't look exactly the same and are not in the exact same places. Lighting changes. People look very different and walk different paths. It's going through PRNG so even very small pixel differences (which you can find even on an empty street thanks to changing weather, litter, wind and so on) are good enough if they are unpredictable. In other words, when you compare pictures of the same lava lamp with pictures of some random cars, I think you will be able to find more patterns in the lava lamp movement. You would also likely be able to predict it better (well that's the same thing I guess).

Re: A wall of lava lamps helps encrypt the internet

#45

Post by BurningFrog »

samuel wrote: post #17

I might be prejudiced, but this looks like a big PR stunt/done for the cool factor kind of thing. Aren't there simpler/saner alternatives for getting good randomness?

It looks quite simple and sane to me.

A big plus over the alternatives I see mentioned is that you can easily see if it's working right now.

What bothers me is that at least 80% of the wall is unrandomized wall and lampfeet.

Re: A wall of lava lamps helps encrypt the internet

#46

Post by gruez »

shagie wrote: post #30
samuel wrote: post #17

I might be prejudiced, but this looks like a big PR stunt/done for the cool factor kind of thing. Aren't there simpler/saner alternatives for getting good randomness?

I suspect its a matter of getting a lot of random rapidly with easily replaceable and unregulated devices. The classic HotBits ( https://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/ ) uses radioactive decay to get its random data. This generates 100 bytes per second of randomness. But that also depends on getting a radiation source. A single one costs about $80. A lava lamp costs $10. Working off the list of isotopes that they provide,…

>As the material decays, its rate of generating bits of data slows down.

can't you use something with a really long half-life?

Re: A wall of lava lamps helps encrypt the internet

#47

Post by nickpsecurity »

This is pretty cool use of tech that goes back to SGI. It's definitely not the practical solution to TRNG's. There are analog solutions that use basic physics and EE techniques to generate noise fast, cheap, in tiny footprint if you want, and with a lot of potential diversity in supply chain. Here's an example of an open one:

https://github.com/waywardgeek/infnoise/blob/master/README.m...

Re: A wall of lava lamps helps encrypt the internet

#48

Post by blattimwind »

pvg wrote: post #31
Houshalter wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would be an easier way? A wall of lava lamps seems pretty easy to set up.

The zillions of sources of EM/thermal/etc noise. It's so prevalent, most of the time the effort is spent in trying to get rid of it.

Very wideband Zener noise sources are a common piece of measurement equipment; and many folks built their own noise sources (also for RNGs) using Zener junction breakdown. While building my own I needed quite a bit of shielding to avoid interference issues by RF sources (mostly HF fluoerescent lights and LEDs), so these sources might be susceptible to bias by EMI...?

Other junction breakdowns have noise as well, resistive noise is very low power. Atmospheric noise and background noise is a thing too, but I'd guess they are too susceptible to interference by malicious actors...

Re: A wall of lava lamps helps encrypt the internet

#49

Post by jakobegger »

Houshalter wrote: post #18
samuel wrote: post #17

I might be prejudiced, but this looks like a big PR stunt/done for the cool factor kind of thing. Aren't there simpler/saner alternatives for getting good randomness?

What would be an easier way? A wall of lava lamps seems pretty easy to set up.

the random noise from the camera sensor is plenty good randomness. It would work just as well without the lava lamps.

Re: A wall of lava lamps helps encrypt the internet

#50

Post by noir_lord »

gruez wrote: post #46
shagie wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect its a matter of getting a lot of random rapidly with easily replaceable and unregulated devices. The classic HotBits ( https://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/ ) uses radioactive decay to get its random data. This generates 100 bytes per second of randomness. But that also depends on getting a radiation source. A single one costs about $80. A lava lamp costs $10. Working off the list of isotopes that they provide,…

>As the material decays, its rate of generating bits of data slows down. can't you use something with a really long half-life?

but then your initial rate is much slower.
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