LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police • Hacker News Board

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#751

Post by swombat » Sun, Dec 31, 2017, 4:19 PM UTC

mbesto wrote: post #750

vidarh wrote: post #685

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This to me seems to be the big difference between US policing and what we're used to in e.g. most European countries: A focus on quick resolution at all cost rather than peaceful resolution. UK police for example tends to respond with overwhelming force, clear the area if possible, and contain their potential adversary, and if possible often wait the situation out. They will use violence if they have to, but it ends…

> A focus on quick resolution at all cost rather than peaceful resolution. The reason for this is simple. It just takes one situation (or at least one believably plausible situation) for people of power to justify a quicker resolution that ultimately gives them more power and meets their KPI goals (more arrests, less bad guys living). In this case, imagine a real armed gunman shoots a hostage or a stray bullet hits a…

I think this political escalation process is itself specific to the US... I think if it happened in the U.K. there would be no such outcry... just tributes to the innocent bystander and a nice funeral. Shit happens. It doesn’t have to always be someone’s fault.

Americans seems to be perpetually caught in a victim-aggressor-rescuer drama triangle...

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#752

Post by kps » Sun, Dec 31, 2017, 4:25 PM UTC

tomxor wrote: post #726

vidarh wrote: post #685

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This to me seems to be the big difference between US policing and what we're used to in e.g. most European countries: A focus on quick resolution at all cost rather than peaceful resolution. UK police for example tends to respond with overwhelming force, clear the area if possible, and contain their potential adversary, and if possible often wait the situation out. They will use violence if they have to, but it ends…

> police defaults to avoid violence, and defaults to not even carry guns. I think this might be more of a difference between the legality of guns in the US and UK. Guns are so rare in the UK because they are illegal to own for almost everyone. I can imagine that makes a big difference for a police officer's expectation of the likely potential danger of public adversaries... yes there are still knives and acid and wha…

> I think this might be more of a difference between the legality of guns in the US and UK.

I don't think so; UK gun restrictions are relatively recent (~20 years). I would attribute it to the Peelian Principles¹, which post-date US disconnection from Britain.

¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#753

Post by glenneroo » Sun, Dec 31, 2017, 4:43 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #746

glenneroo wrote: post #745

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I witnessed a suicidal guy walking around Portland at 5am holding a gun to his head. The police surrounded him on three sides, wearing bullet-proof armor and hiding behind large armored vehicles and even had snipers in the parking lot across the street. They seemed pretty secure in their positions and decked out with heavy weaponry from a safe distance. He had a small 6-shooter and was walking in circles. They ca…

Shoot pretty much any direction in a busy city, and hit somebody. He was a loose cannon, aiming a deadly weapon irresponsibly. It can be argued, he had to be taken down. Cruel, but when people put themselves in that position something has to be done, and quickly. Not clear why a sleeping dart couldn't have been used though. Animal control does a pretty good job in such situations.

I should have mentioned, the police cordoned off the entire block with tape and there were armed police on every street. The police were also yelling through the megaphone. Nobody was on the street and nobody was leaving their houses in that climate. The parking lot was 99% empty.

As mentioned, he shot the ground directly in front of himself. Once.

And as mentioned elsewhere here, German police would in that case shoot e.g. a leg to disable the threat, not aim to kill. Someone gave the kill order and a lot of shots were fired. Of course your suggestion to use a sleeping dart (or something similar) would be ideal.

On top of all that but less relevant to this thread, they left the body uncovered on the street until late in the afternoon, approx. 8 hours. I took a lot of pictures of the entire thing (starting after the shooting, because I was afraid the police might think I had a gun too with my huge black camera with telephoto lens).

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#754

Post by kazagistar » Sun, Dec 31, 2017, 4:52 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #746

glenneroo wrote: post #745

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I witnessed a suicidal guy walking around Portland at 5am holding a gun to his head. The police surrounded him on three sides, wearing bullet-proof armor and hiding behind large armored vehicles and even had snipers in the parking lot across the street. They seemed pretty secure in their positions and decked out with heavy weaponry from a safe distance. He had a small 6-shooter and was walking in circles. They ca…

Shoot pretty much any direction in a busy city, and hit somebody. He was a loose cannon, aiming a deadly weapon irresponsibly. It can be argued, he had to be taken down. Cruel, but when people put themselves in that position something has to be done, and quickly. Not clear why a sleeping dart couldn't have been used though. Animal control does a pretty good job in such situations.

They disn't use sleeping darts because the police are also loose cannons aiming deadly weapons irresponsibly, as we can see time and time again.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#755

Post by mindslight » Sun, Dec 31, 2017, 5:02 PM UTC

zuminator wrote: post #721

mindslight wrote: post #557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cops act like thugs because the overwhelming majority of people they arrest/hassle/shoot are guilty . Period. However, this does not justify any of the collateral damage to the ones who are innocent - the scales of justice are not a probability distribution! The entire point of the rule of law is to have a clear dividing line between the acceptable and the unacceptable - every innocent person assaulted by the police…

I 100% agree with your second paragraph but as for the idea that most people hassled by the cops are not guilty, well publicized stop and frisk statistics in NYC indicate the opposite. Besides, why does that even matter? Even if most alleged perps are guilty of something, that "something" isn't usually a violent crime, it's a traffic violation or public drinking or selling pot or a minor domestic disturbance. And I w…

My first paragraph wasn't describing what ought, but what is.

> stop and frisk statistics in NYC indicate the opposite. Besides, why does that even matter? Even if most alleged perps are guilty of something, that "something" isn't usually a violent crime, it's a traffic violation or public drinking or selling pot or a minor domestic disturbance

Without refuting either of these points, I stand by the intuition of my comment. Stop and frisk seems more like an exception that proves the rule, showing just how bad the narrative of "good guys" "inspecting subjects" has gotten.

> That comes from the attitude that asserting control over the situation is more important than protecting and serving the citizenry as the cop was hired to do

I totally agree - focusing on their desire for control, and the injustice committed when they demand that control over an innocent person, is a good way of analyzing it.

> the case of this SWAT call, the cops had plenty of time to secure their own safety and to wait out the hostage taker. First and foremost they did not even confirm

IMHO, the "in-situation" framing is heading down the wrong path. Primarily worrying about what the police department policy is, how much of a paid staycation a murderer will get, etc is buying into the corrupt idea that cops aren't subject to the laws themselves. Under the actual rule of law, murderers go to prison no matter what costume they wore. And if policy department policy encouraged/defended the murder, we call that conspiracy.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#756

Post by astronautjones » Sun, Dec 31, 2017, 5:05 PM UTC

always_good wrote: post #631

noncoml wrote: post #587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The video leaked online. He is not even trying to reach for his pajamas or something. A cop asks him to move towards them and the next second you hear the shot. It's crazy.

He definitely reached for his shorts. It's a reflex that comes from a whole lifetime of being able to pull up your pants without risk of being shot. But that's all irrelevant. If the cops were only interested in securing him, they would've made him lie down like a starfish and have someone approach him instead of letting Jigsaw make him play Twister.

that video is horrific. the cop directing him is just dripping with sadism

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#757

Post by danso » Sun, Dec 31, 2017, 5:05 PM UTC

dingbat wrote: post #740

misnome wrote: post #723

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How was he “careless” in any way? Was it not completely legal for him to own it, and completely legal for him to show it to other people, especially in the privacy of a hotel room? I thought the right to do this was for many the single most important principle of your country, shouldn’t the police have responded to reports of somebody with a gun with “Well this is the USA, nothing to see here?”

it was called in because he was pointing the rifle out of his hotel room window. i guess it's up to you to decide for yourself whether or not that could be called "careless". or whether it would be reasonable for a passerby to call in a report of someone pointing a rifle outside of a hotel room window, a couple months after Las Vegas.

The verdict came in a couple months after the 2017 Vegas shooting. The actual incident took place in January 2016. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Daniel_Shaver

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#758

Post by mbesto » Sun, Dec 31, 2017, 5:08 PM UTC

swombat wrote: post #751

mbesto wrote: post #750

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A focus on quick resolution at all cost rather than peaceful resolution. The reason for this is simple. It just takes one situation (or at least one believably plausible situation) for people of power to justify a quicker resolution that ultimately gives them more power and meets their KPI goals (more arrests, less bad guys living). In this case, imagine a real armed gunman shoots a hostage or a stray bullet hits a…

I think this political escalation process is itself specific to the US... I think if it happened in the U.K. there would be no such outcry... just tributes to the innocent bystander and a nice funeral. Shit happens. It doesn’t have to always be someone’s fault. Americans seems to be perpetually caught in a victim-aggressor-rescuer drama triangle...

Yes I should have clarified that this is fairly unique to US culture.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#759

Post by wjossey » Sun, Dec 31, 2017, 5:09 PM UTC

anonoholic wrote: post #664

anonymous231e1 wrote: post #632

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anonymous for obvious reasons... This happened to me on Wednesday about 5:00am. My wife and I had gotten into a terrible fight. She suffers from terrible alcoholism. This week of Christmas has been absolutely horrible as demons resurface. She awoke me from my sleep about 4am, drunk and outraged because I asked if she was wearing a robe in bed. Things spiraled very quickly out of control, my wife was out of control, a…

So sorry to hear your story. As an alcoholic though (currently 1.5 bottles of wine down, and wishing I had another to hand), I find it hard to reconcile your situation. Your wife was drunk, you were not, but both lost control? Not judging, just asking. The reason I ask is that only situation in which my alcohol abuse has triggered any kind of verbal exchange is where (unaware of my situation) my partner has been snap…

I read your comment, kept going with my morning, but then felt compelled to come back. You might not see this given it’s a throw away, but I hope you do.

As someone who has lost family members to alcohol (both figuratively while they were living, and now literally as they have passed away), I’m always prone to respond to opening sentences like yours with “today is a great day to get sober.”

There is a meeting near where you live today. https://www.aa.org/pages/en_US/find-local-aa

If you’re looking for some inspiration from another addict, I always recommend Bob Forest. You can hear him on the This Life podcast with Drew Pinsky http://drdrew.com/thislife/.

Best of luck to you.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#760

Post by tomxor » Sun, Dec 31, 2017, 5:12 PM UTC

kps wrote: post #752

tomxor wrote: post #726

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> police defaults to avoid violence, and defaults to not even carry guns. I think this might be more of a difference between the legality of guns in the US and UK. Guns are so rare in the UK because they are illegal to own for almost everyone. I can imagine that makes a big difference for a police officer's expectation of the likely potential danger of public adversaries... yes there are still knives and acid and wha…

> I think this might be more of a difference between the legality of guns in the US and UK. I don't think so; UK gun restrictions are relatively recent (~20 years). I would attribute it to the Peelian Principles ¹, which post-date US disconnection from Britain. ¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles

Interesting, I didn't know about the peelian principles, and no doubt a substantial amount of differences can be attributed to it... however I still suspect gun ownership differences play a significant role, 20 years law or not, guns are and have been prevalent in the US like they have never been in the UK.