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LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

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Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#551
post #109
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's reasonable or effective to entirely expect police to solve this problem. Here is the account from the article: Livingston said when the door opened, officers gave Finch commands to put his hands up and walk toward them. He complied for a "very short time" and put his hands back down. He raised them again, and then lowered them for a second time, Livingston said. "The male then turned towards the of…

When I watch the Philip Brailsford body cam footage, I find it hard to believe this is a sane assumption to operate under. The polite come in, in full tactical armer, to a guy in shorts and t-shirt, and execute him because he couldn't keep his pants up as he crawled across the floor towards them face down? Come on.

I agree. That one's rediculous.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sleep naked

If I'm gonna die by cop, they're at least gonna get a full body cam of my wang. A martyr's death.

Since we just told you we'd ban the account if you kept breaking the guidelines with unsubstantive comments, we've banned the account. We're happy to unban accounts if you email us at hn@ycombinator.com and we believe you'll start posting civilly and substantively.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#553
post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Shotgun slugs are a lot less penetrative than .50 BMG though; they're proportionally heavier and travel slower. What does the word "proportionally" mean in this sentence? Because factually, the slug is about half the weight of the BMG round. >You need significantly more thickness of armor just to stop the .50 BMG at all, by which point you've added so much more mass that you've gone much of the towards solving the h…

>You're looking at elephant-stomping-on-you levels of force, and you're trying to say it'll be mitigated somewhat because you have 5 pounds of steel on your chest rather than 2 pounds. You will be a person salsa even if you strapped a kitchen stove to yourself. the momentum conservation means that the 5 pound of steel would be moving with the speed of 18m/s after full momentum transfer from the 45g bullet hitting it…

I don't mean to be rude, but did you not understand what I wrote above?

>the momentum conservation means that the 5 pound of steel would be moving with the speed of 18m/s after full momentum transfer from the 45g bullet hitting it at 900m/s. 5lb at 18m/s - is like somebody would hit you with a frying pan.

The change in momentum over time is what matters, not the momentum itself. As I said above, think of a car. The momentum change on your body from going from 0 to 100 mph is a slight push on your chest....if you spread that momentum change over 60 seconds of steady acceleration. The exact same momentum change, if done over a few milliseconds from say smashing into a brick wall, is probably going to kill you.

I mean this isn't rocket science, it's literally high school physics.

>please enlighten us and correct my calculations above.

I...did the math already? Did you not read it? The momentum change over the distance of 2 inches produces a force of about 360,000 Newton - a 6000 kg elephant just standing on you would produce "only" 60,000 newtons. He needs to be actively trying to stomp your daylights in to get the kind of forces we're talking about.

50 cal is the kind of round that you hit someone in the torso and their arms fly off. It was built to kill vehicles and planes, for people it is absurd overkill.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#554

> Los Angeles police have arrested a 25-year-old man on suspicion of making the swatting call that ended with a Wichita man being killed by police. What crime are they charging him with? I don't think we have the right crime on the books for this at present. The guy who phoned this in is a scumbag, no doubt. But Andrew Finch's death is 100% on the cops who showed up. As we've seen time and time again, their selection…

> What crime are they charging him with?

Second degree murder seems appropriate

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#555
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here we have the exact opposite and police are often prosecuted for firing their weapon. Result is they get kicked, slapped, scolded and vocabulary assaulted by 13 year olds who know they would win the case for a judge if it comes to it (or otherwise get 40 hours of public service). Why? Because "police needs to know better and accept it as part of their job". Maybe US is a bit much to the other side but with the sta…

> You know what would help? If the police tells you to do something, do it without question or big mouthing. Cops tell you to put your hands where they can see them? Do it. Tell you to lie down? Do it. Fight them later for any unjust actions but while at gunpoint just beeping comply. -The problem, at least in some cases, is that you may get confusing, if not direct contradictory orders. Say, if one officer yells 'Put…

True. That's why I said US might be exceptional here. The chances of a person drawing a gun are large compared to other nations. Which means as an officer you have more reason to quick draw and as a convict/victim you have more reason to behave/be unlucky.

I have no doubt the police is trained. I have no doubt they did not draw because they wanted to have a party. They most likely thought they were in serious danger.

Let's do the Devils advocate. You are the cop standing there. You are almost certain he will pull a gun on you or your colleague. What would you do?

I don't think it will be solved by having an actor join their class. It's statistics and interpretation of it mostly.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#556
post #60

I'm glad this person is an adult located in the U.S. Hopefully this makes for swift and severe justice. I'm sad to learn the victim was the father of two children. And I'm mad that police are shooting people, innocent or not, based on vague gestures that sorta, maybe, if you look at it from the right angle, looks a little threatening. I said yesterday that, as a hearing-impaired person, if I'm ever in a position wher…

> And I'm mad that police are shooting people, innocent or not, based on vague gestures that sorta, maybe, if you look at it from the right angle, looks a little threatening. I can understand that, but I recommend caution when it comes to judgement. Combat is every bit as technical as system architecture, and I think it requires related experience to judge fairly. Movies prepare you to critique a fighter about as wel…

Movies prepare you to critique a fighter about as well as [..]

That's a pretty patronizing assumption to make about the many and various people you're discussing this with. I've been in a lot of violent situations, including armed ones, and I think your rationalizations are facile, to put it mildly.

I do a little martial arts

OK...

Look at some videos of knife attacks, for example:

In the first one the guy was astonished to be attacked at all, and it's obvious that he knew his attacker, who was equally obviously not a professional criminal. It's not relevant to this context. I could talk about defensibility against his physical attack too but I think it's sort of pointless to write text descriptions for a general audience.

The behavior in the second video is suspicious, defensible, relies on a distraction tactic, and it's notable that the soldier actually deflects the attack successfully. It's hard to tell whether the attacked was subsequently shot by one of the other soldiers or stabbed with his own weapon by the soldier who took him to the ground, but I think this actually showcases the difference between being prepared to handle violence and being jumpy, which means you're not well-prepared.

I realize you're trying to make a positive contribution but would urge you to take your own advice about not overestimating your insight.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The one time I was arrested (for illegal use of a roadway during a protest), during the post arrest search of my belongings, the cop searching made some comment about something in my bag and I turned my head (I was facing a wall) to reply, for which he immediately shoved my face back into the wall and said "You're not allowed to move - my safety is more important than yours". Keep in mind, this is in a police station…

Look up a Youtube channel called PoliceActivity . It is a collection of dashcam/bodycam videos of US police involved in some kind of shooting/assault. They are not edited down to fit a news report so videos usually last 10-30 minutes. Some show cops stealing money/drug from suspects and US media actually showed such clips in news reports. But lots of the videos show actual circumstances leading up to shooting by poli…

Cops act like thugs because the overwhelming majority of people they arrest/hassle/shoot are guilty. Period.

However, this does not justify any of the collateral damage to the ones who are innocent - the scales of justice are not a probability distribution! The entire point of the rule of law is to have a clear dividing line between the acceptable and the unacceptable - every innocent person assaulted by the police is a victim of a freshly-committed crime, and should be entitled to (at the very least) civil recompense.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#558
post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Shotgun slugs are a lot less penetrative than .50 BMG though; they're proportionally heavier and travel slower. What does the word "proportionally" mean in this sentence? Because factually, the slug is about half the weight of the BMG round. >You need significantly more thickness of armor just to stop the .50 BMG at all, by which point you've added so much more mass that you've gone much of the towards solving the h…

>You're looking at elephant-stomping-on-you levels of force, and you're trying to say it'll be mitigated somewhat because you have 5 pounds of steel on your chest rather than 2 pounds. You will be a person salsa even if you strapped a kitchen stove to yourself. the momentum conservation means that the 5 pound of steel would be moving with the speed of 18m/s after full momentum transfer from the 45g bullet hitting it…

See this is why I come to HN. For nerdy interesting analysis that's relevant. Much better than 90% of the comments that are fools who find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions.

This is no better than a political article as far as bringing out the dark side of people.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#559

What bothers me about these situations is just the entire idea of "SWAT" as practiced. You are a cop with 5+ other cops. You all pull your guns. Someone comes to the door, groggy in the middle of the night. They may or may not understand you are police. They may or may not believe you are the police. They are definitely confused/frightened/angry by your presence. We now begin the dice rolling process. Since every pol…

What is the appropriate response in this kind of situation?

Ideally it wouldn't get this far but at a minimum, the police should not shoot until an actual gun is seen. Thinking they are in danger is not good enough, their rules for engagement need to be as high as the military, if not higher... they should have to confirm there is an actual threat and should not fire their weapons until at least that threat is confirmed. A feeling is not enough to shoot on.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#560
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's reasonable or effective to entirely expect police to solve this problem. Here is the account from the article: Livingston said when the door opened, officers gave Finch commands to put his hands up and walk toward them. He complied for a "very short time" and put his hands back down. He raised them again, and then lowered them for a second time, Livingston said. "The male then turned towards the of…

I think probably the most effective way to solve the problem would be to make people better aware of what makes you appear threatening and non-threatening in a confrontation. Unfortunately in America, what makes you seem threatening is based on the color of your skin. I am an African American living in a predominantly White county in the south that was made famous 30 years ago nationally for being anti-minority. Whil…

That's very fair. Unfortunately, being a big black dude is a great way to look threatening, which does suck. As a point of encouragement, though, it is worth noting that in spite of the national news, encounters with police are really rare, and deadly encounters super rare. Many officers go an entire career without ever firing their gun at anyone - it's just very rare. Your staircase is way more likely to kill you.

In fact, I remember having a really interesting conversation with a friend about this stuff a few years ago. We were talking about the statistic that black people are shot by police at twice the rate white people are. And yet some black people are so afraid of police in a traffic stop, they freak out if they haven't adequately prepared for it, and white people are so unafraid that they're shocked it's perceived as anything other than paperwork by the officer and nothing about it seems even potentially dangerous. I said - the difference between those two views isn't 2x. Black people don't think cops are twice as dangerous as white people... more like infinity x. And I said, either cops are way more dangerous than I was raised to believe, or way less dangerous than you were raised to believe, or both.

Well - I think it's both. I think if you are afraid of police in every encounter, a good reality check is to look up the absolute number of people killed by police anually and figure out how dangerous that really makes them compared to, I don't know, lawnmowers or something. And on the flip side, I think if you think police are really safe, a good reality check is to look at some of the training they do, some of the threats they face, understand how very fast a peaceful situation can turn violent and how easy it is to look like a threat, and understand that you have to be thoughtful and deliberate about everything you do around a cop, particularly in the situations that are most dangerous to them.

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