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LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

kansas.com

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Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#401

Post by ScottBurson »

downandout wrote: post #11
superflyguy wrote: post #7

Is the policeman who killed an unarmed man at his house going to be charged? Ideally this wouldn't be a rhetorical question. How long until the police give themselves the right to kill someone annoying by anonymously phoning in a warning then making sure they're amongst the ones who turn up?

This was my immediate reaction. My guess is that the blame and punishment will all be laser focused on the caller, in an attempt to avoid a public outcry for the actual shooter’s head. That cop shouldn’t be on administrative leave, he should be in jail for murder.

I do think the caller should be convicted of murder. I'm not sure exactly which charge would be most appropriate for someone who deliberately created a situation in which someone could be killed, and they were. Ah — from the Wikipedia page [0] it looks like felony murder is the right charge. It's certainly at least involuntary manslaughter.

I do agree with you, though, that a close look should be taken at the shooter and the situation with an eye toward possibly charging the shooter. I do think that in general, police in many parts of the US are too insulated from the consequences of such decisions. I'm not completely sure, though, based on this article, that I would consider the officer culpable. Police are trained to react quickly and to protect one another. The description here does leave me with the sense, however, that the one who fired may not have had a particularly good view of what the victim was doing. Arguably there is a systemic problem that when there are many officers, all with different and incomplete views of the situation, the odds of one thinking that something is going on that justifies opening fire get to be unacceptably high.

Anyway I do hope you're not suggesting that the shooter's responsibility somehow mitigates that of the caller.

ETA: Ah, I didn't know there was body cam footage we could see [1]. Okay, I have to agree with you, this looks pretty damning. There were no officers within easy target range of the victim; the shot was taken from well across the street. Even if the victim had been pulling out a gun, unless he's a Clint Eastwood character, he's going to have to take a second or two to aim it to have any chance of hitting anyone at that distance. It was not necessary to fire that quickly. I have to qualify this by saying I'm no firearms expert, but that's how it looks to me.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_(United_States_law)

[1] http://www.kansas.com/news/local/crime/article192089304.html

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#402

Post by MaxfordAndSons »

bitwize wrote: post #394
dba7dba wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Police should be prepared to die wearing the badge, with civilian casualty being an absolute last resort. I disagree. No one should be prepared to die while working a job, a job that one will have all his life.

As much as people slag off the "thin blue line" mentality it does mean something. You put that uniform on and you are the meat-shield between order and chaos, between civilization and lawlessness. You're performing a grim but necessary service , and there's no shame in retiring to civilian life if you can't or won't accept this duty. This is why soldiers are taught that they are outranked by any civilian. Every offic…

The one time I was arrested (for illegal use of a roadway during a protest), during the post arrest search of my belongings, the cop searching made some comment about something in my bag and I turned my head (I was facing a wall) to reply, for which he immediately shoved my face back into the wall and said "You're not allowed to move - my safety is more important than yours". Keep in mind, this is in a police station surrounded by other cops, he already body searched me, and I was a 5'10, 120 pound nerdy teenager.

Of course, this is just an anecdotal, singular data point, but it strongly accords with the sense I get watching videos of police shootings that many if not most police officers today are in fact trained to put their safety and the safety of their fellow officers above that of civilians.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#403

Post by notwedtm »

dclowd9901 wrote: post #385
williamscales wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try finding enough people willing to do that. I'm not willing to die with the badge on, so I will never be a police officer. But I suspect that if you ask police officers the same question, many of them are also not truly willing to make the ultimate sacrifice. I'm not really sure what to do about this. Surely many of those who are willing to make that sacrifice are already police officers or other first responders.

Yet, plenty of people go into the military. I call bullshit. And frankly the only people I want wearing the badge are ones who are willing to sacrifice themselves, even if it’s a much smaller number of officers being paid much more and are much more skilled.

The military offers a much larger compensation package for your employment/service. As a LEO, you get a paycheck, and a pension. As a soldier, you get room & board, food, transportation (mostly), and all your necessities issued to you.

For some people, those are worth the potential of death, where as the LEO compensation isn't.

Lastly, there is a large group of people who enlist due to patriotic beliefs (i.e. "Doing your duty"/"Serving your country"). I don't see that same type of patriotism towards local LEO organizations.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#404

Post by banku_brougham »

ivanhoe wrote: post #175
WhatIsDukkha wrote: post #100

What bothers me about these situations is just the entire idea of "SWAT" as practiced. You are a cop with 5+ other cops. You all pull your guns. Someone comes to the door, groggy in the middle of the night. They may or may not understand you are police. They may or may not believe you are the police. They are definitely confused/frightened/angry by your presence. We now begin the dice rolling process. Since every pol…

They have to approach the situation prepared for the worst case scenario. Problem is that they typically lack the proper training and the discipline required, and act too hastily. There's also a huge problem with the whole that macho, gun loving, power-tripping culture, it just makes things worse, wrong profile of people gets that kind of job.

>They have to approach the situation prepared for the worst case scenario.

I don’t agree with this. I think they are preparing for particular forms of the worst case, and its causing these incidents.

Is killing innocent civilians the worst case? This outcome isn’t being considered.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#405

Post by anigbrowl »

rdiddly wrote: post #310
WhatIsDukkha wrote: post #100

What bothers me about these situations is just the entire idea of "SWAT" as practiced. You are a cop with 5+ other cops. You all pull your guns. Someone comes to the door, groggy in the middle of the night. They may or may not understand you are police. They may or may not believe you are the police. They are definitely confused/frightened/angry by your presence. We now begin the dice rolling process. Since every pol…

Not to be too blunt, but that's why they call it law enforcement. What's causing all the cognitive dissonance is the fact that law enforcement was summoned inappropriately -- i.e. on a an innocent person in a situation where no laws were broken and no enforcement was needed. If the drug-lord whose assassins raped and killed your sister is confused and groggy in the middle of the night and gets shot accidentally or ev…

You can keep it, I don't want any part of what you're into. And that's not for lack of life experience with dangerous situations.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#406

Post by samastur »

davemp wrote: post #377
IgorPartola wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We know it's not guns. So what's the cause? You misspelled “I want to believe it’s not guns.” I am from Ukraine originally. Poverty is the reason there. So yeah let’s have that proper safety net instead. But when we are talking about this, let’s break it down a bit between different types of violence where guns are used: police shooting suspects, gang violence, run of the mill murder, and acts of terrorism. You don…

Apparently the USA is behind Norway, Finland, and Switzerland in mass shooting deaths per 100k population [1]. For typical gun related homocides it is most certainly correlated with poverty and education. [1]: https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/sTbiw2S8fHl89qyY6AXbohcKkv...

When number of shootings is 1, you are not actually doing useful statistics. It can easily be an aberration.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#407

Post by banku_brougham »

williamscales wrote: post #370
dclowd9901 wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The worst case scenario? I’m pretty sure that is the scenario that played out. Police should be prepared to die wearing the badge, with civilian casualty being an absolute last resort. It works this way for the military. I can’t fathom why it doesn’t work this way with police.

Try finding enough people willing to do that. I'm not willing to die with the badge on, so I will never be a police officer. But I suspect that if you ask police officers the same question, many of them are also not truly willing to make the ultimate sacrifice. I'm not really sure what to do about this. Surely many of those who are willing to make that sacrifice are already police officers or other first responders.

Police are paid well in this country, better than the military by a long stretch. I suggest we find out how many are willing to step up and be heroes, I think there are many.

Our civilization is so lacking in the honorable stoicism which would serve these personnel so well.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#408

Post by MaxfordAndSons »

banku_brougham wrote: post #404
ivanhoe wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have to approach the situation prepared for the worst case scenario. Problem is that they typically lack the proper training and the discipline required, and act too hastily. There's also a huge problem with the whole that macho, gun loving, power-tripping culture, it just makes things worse, wrong profile of people gets that kind of job.

>They have to approach the situation prepared for the worst case scenario. I don’t agree with this. I think they are preparing for particular forms of the worst case, and its causing these incidents. Is killing innocent civilians the worst case? This outcome isn’t being considered.

>Is killing innocent civilians the worst case?

No, they're literally taught that protecting their lives and the lives of their fellow officers is their top priority. They're taught by the 'warrior mindset' not to treat civilians like, well, civilians, but instead like potential enemy combatants.

Sure, they're mitigating the personal risks they endure on the job, but they're doing so at the cost of increasing the risk of harm and death to everyone they encounter.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#410

Post by rrix2 »

thatcat wrote: post #353
rdiddly wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actual solution or alternative: You and tons more people like you, should apply for jobs in law enforcement, work your way up into leadership, and change policy.

How is this the solution? Wouldn't the selection process of any bureaucracy be designed specifically to 'weed out' people like this?

Yes, and that seems like a fairly likely reason that police agencies are by and large ossified in to this sort of behavior
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