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LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

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Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#311

Post by ollieshmollie »

joe_the_user wrote: post #268
cortesoft wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We know what is different but we refuse to address it. I understand that many people feel the second amendment is very important, but we at least have to have the intellectual honesty to admit that shootings like this are a consequence of it. We might decide we are willing, as a society, to accept that risk, but we can’t pretend it isn’t there.

I don't see much of a plausible argument that lack of gun control makes American police more trigger happy. And I say that as someone with no particular stake in gun rights. America doesn't have that high a murder rate, it just has a high rate of killings by cops. Lack of training, poor training and overall problematic police-culture seem to be the main offenders.

I think there's at least a plausible argument to be had. A lot of bad guys get guns through holes in gun control, getting a gun out of state, etc. If it were harder for the wrong people to get guns, maybe there wouldn't be such a need for a militarized police force, or at least officers might not fear for their lives during stressful situations.

That said, I'm a believer in the second amendment -- I just think there's definitely an argument to be had.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#312

Post by thomasz »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #236
coldtea wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's more, are those SWAT teams trained policemen or scared little children? Because if they are the latter, why do they go with guns and ammo and equipment enough to equip a small army just to arrest some kid who's selling weed or some guy who threatened their neighbors and such? SWAT teams should be for breaking into Escobar's hideout or stopping angry mobs, not for responding to random phone calls and simple cas…

The overuse of SWAT is ridiculous, but sending them into a shots fired / hostage / bodies on the ground situation is entirely appropriate. And no different from most other developed countries. If you go into a house in Germany, shoot someone, and then threaten to shoot everyone else, do you really think you’re going to get an officer or two casually knocking on the door without weapons at the ready?

German cops have fired a total of 52 bullets in 2016, which killed 11 people. I think it’s very likely that situation would have had a different outcome.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#314

Post by valuearb »

oh_sigh wrote: post #242
rbetts wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A situation that doesn't include the "supposedly" qualification you make. A single anonymous source on a non-911 number without corroborating reports of gunfire is not sufficient cause to shoot a man on his porch. Here's an idea -- fly a drone around the house and look in some windows. Knock on a neighbors door and ask if they heard a gunshot. Establish the identity of the reporter - how does the reporter know what i…

> A single anonymous source on a non-911 number without corroborating reports of gunfire is not sufficient cause to shoot a man on his porch. No one is arguing that. > Here's an idea -- fly a drone around the house and look in some windows. Knock on a neighbors door and ask if they heard a gunshot. That sounds great. Until there is an actual hostage situation, and police waste their time doing this and a hostage is k…

This isn't the movies, cops should never be kicking down the door in a hostage situation. They should be guarding the perimeter and trying to talk to the perpetrator.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#315

Post by computerex »

freedomben wrote: post #185
ivanhoe wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have to approach the situation prepared for the worst case scenario. Problem is that they typically lack the proper training and the discipline required, and act too hastily. There's also a huge problem with the whole that macho, gun loving, power-tripping culture, it just makes things worse, wrong profile of people gets that kind of job.

> Problem is that they typically lack the proper training and the discipline required, and act too hastily. What you are asking them to be is super human, indeed even better than a computer could in the same situation. No amount of "proper training" or "discipline" can prepare you to make perfect decisions based on imperfect data (your sensory perception, plus all the data that isn't present such as must be read from…

Yea this answer is total and utter crap. We aren't asking law enforcement to be super human, we want them to be educated and competent. The fact that the U.S is both lacking in training and competence is a well established fact. Law enforcement in the United States has proven itself to lack training and discipline by firing on innocent unarmed citizens many many times. I don't believe any other country in the world has this problem to our extent. We have a very dangerously trigger happy law enforcement. These issues correlate with lack of training. Civil crime is not like a battlefield, people should be presumed innocent until proven guilty as is law. If someone can't handle this reality, they shouldn't be allowed to wield a weapon that kills. With great force and power comes responsibility. We should be far more selective at the type of people that can go into law enforcement, only those with a grounded temperament and proven track record should be allowed to use deadly force after extensive training. In the U.S, any Joe shmoe hungry for a power trip can attain a legal license to kill by going in law enforcement. That is the actual problem.

I'd love to hear an actual solution or alternative if you have one. But the U.S isn't a special snowflake. It should take a leaf from other countries like Germany, England and France and foster a strong culture of policing by consent rather than the bullshit we have right now.

Also when was the last time an American white law enforcement agent was imprisoned for discharging his or her weapon on an unarmed suspect?

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#316

Post by grzm »

r00fus wrote: post #287
alkonaut wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Handguns are (perhaps surprisingly) lethal. Here (Sweden) officers somewhat controversially use hollow point in order to reduce the risk of stray bullets going through walls or suspects. This has the side effect that suspects shot in thighs, nearly anywhere in the abdomen etc are often instantly in critical condition.

Police using hollow-points sounds insane.

Firearms are deadly force. The decision to use them is the decision to use deadly force. People can disagree with the use of deadly force. If deadly force is allowed, it still makes sense to make its application as precise and limited in scope as possible. Hollow points, compared with full metal jacketed bullets, reduce penetration, reducing shoot-throughs and the potential of injuring those who are not the target. They also increase the likelihood that a lower number of rounds will be needed to be effective. Limiting the number of rounds limits the time of the encounter and the number of rounds that potentially going to be off-target.

To be clear, there's a lot that should go into the decision to use deadly force, and it's one that should not be considered likely. People can disagree with when the decision is correctly made. Once it's made however, hollow-points are more effective than fully-jacketed rounds.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#317

Post by reificator »

StavrosK wrote: post #286
reificator wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get where you're coming from, but the person who called it in named themselves SWauTistic and makes a hobby of this behavior.

Yes, the guy is definitely guilty of some degree of murder, because he knew what he was doing. However, I'm contrasting it with my country, where calling in such a situation would be very unlikely to get someone killed, because the police are much more reticent to shoot people. In such a case, the caller could be guilty of wasting resources, but not of murder. The only difference is the handling of each situation by…

> However, I'm contrasting it with my country, where calling in such a situation would be very unlikely to get someone killed, because the police are much more reticent to shoot people.

Yeah, but I don't think that's reasonable to do. If you live in the U.S. you know this is a problem, choosing to still do it is more damning.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#318

Post by valuearb »

oh_sigh wrote: post #249
alkonaut wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could be a simple as calling the suspects phone or knocking doors at neighbors. If the suspect answered the phone and said he was asleep and said he would be happy to show the officers around his house, maybe things would have gone differently.

Did you listen to the audio? The person calling 911 was the supposed suspect he claimed to have killed his father, so I'm not sure how you would contact the suspect without just getting the same 'prankster' again. Knocking on doors of the neighbors sounds great, but does it give you any useful information if no one heard a gun shot? What if he shot his dad in the basement, or the walls of the house are thick enough t…

Calling the house won't get the "prankster" again. If you call the house and the same person answers making the same threats, that's confirmation that the situation appears to be serious (most likely someone attempting suicide by cop though).

If the person who answers tells you that nothing is wrong, and that no one called the cops, then swat team can be a bit more careful about keeping their safeties on.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#319

Post by Xylakant »

valuearb wrote: post #308
Xylakant wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither of these situations should trigger no-knock forced entry. The response to most situations should be careful assessment of the situation at hand, the involved actors and the dynamic of the situation, especially since swatting has come up. Police truly need to expect that an anonymous tipster is trying to goad them into action. There’s few situations that should probably trigger an immediate forceful response,…

Any cop who shoots an innocent person during a no-knock forced entry should be automatically charged with murder.

In germany any police shooting that results in death of a human triggers an automatic investigation.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#320

Post by valuearb »

oh_sigh wrote: post #264
leesalminen wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still don’t see how calling a phone number associated with that address and seeing who picks up could hurt anything. This phone call could’ve occurred while SWAT was deploying to the scene. They only could’ve gained by doing this.

If it was real, and the hostage taker picked up, he could say everything was fine. What do you do then? Calling seems like a good idea but I'm not sure it provides any actionable information.

Then you tell your team there is a high likeylhood of a false call, and maybe they don't keep their fingers on hair triggers.
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