LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police • Hacker News Board

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#231

Post by vitalurk » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 7:40 PM UTC

freedomben wrote: post #185

ivanhoe wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have to approach the situation prepared for the worst case scenario. Problem is that they typically lack the proper training and the discipline required, and act too hastily. There's also a huge problem with the whole that macho, gun loving, power-tripping culture, it just makes things worse, wrong profile of people gets that kind of job.

> Problem is that they typically lack the proper training and the discipline required, and act too hastily. What you are asking them to be is super human, indeed even better than a computer could in the same situation. No amount of "proper training" or "discipline" can prepare you to make perfect decisions based on imperfect data (your sensory perception, plus all the data that isn't present such as must be read from…

As an Infantry soldier who deployed to Afghanistan, I received more training on how to handle this type of situation than most cops seem to ever get. If we require soldiers to be better, why not require cops. Soldiers get to face more stress than cops.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#232

Post by cortesoft » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 7:40 PM UTC

varjag wrote: post #220

freedomben wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Problem is that they typically lack the proper training and the discipline required, and act too hastily. What you are asking them to be is super human, indeed even better than a computer could in the same situation. No amount of "proper training" or "discipline" can prepare you to make perfect decisions based on imperfect data (your sensory perception, plus all the data that isn't present such as must be read from…

Somehow police in the rest of developed world are able to resist shooting a great deal of suspects on the spot. Find what's different in America and fix it.

We know what is different but we refuse to address it. I understand that many people feel the second amendment is very important, but we at least have to have the intellectual honesty to admit that shootings like this are a consequence of it. We might decide we are willing, as a society, to accept that risk, but we can’t pretend it isn’t there.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#233

Post by CydeWeys » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 7:41 PM UTC

j9461701 wrote: post #77

CydeWeys wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A typical body armor plate has much more surface area in contact with the body than a rifle butt does though -- we're talking roughly an entire square foot. Said body armor plate, if it's to stop a .50 BMG round, also will be thick enough to weigh as much as an M82. This makes up for the fact that the acceleration happens over a reduced distance. Also keep in mind that a rifle needs to be comfortable enough for many…

For point of reference, shotgun slugs can be stopped by modern armor. It still cracks people's ribs through sheer impulse. A 50 BMG has 5 times the kinetic energy and 3 times the momentum of that. It's simply not enough to stop the bullet at these kinds of impulses, you need something to distribute the force over time as well as space. Cars use crumple zones for this purpose - the time it takes the front to deform is…

Shotgun slugs are a lot less penetrative than .50 BMG though; they're proportionally heavier and travel slower. 12 gauge is .73 inches. You need significantly more thickness of armor just to stop the .50 BMG at all, by which point you've added so much more mass that you've gone much of the towards solving the higher impulse as well.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#234

Post by cortesoft » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 7:42 PM UTC

hackerbob wrote: post #191

WhatIsDukkha wrote: post #100

What bothers me about these situations is just the entire idea of "SWAT" as practiced. You are a cop with 5+ other cops. You all pull your guns. Someone comes to the door, groggy in the middle of the night. They may or may not understand you are police. They may or may not believe you are the police. They are definitely confused/frightened/angry by your presence. We now begin the dice rolling process. Since every pol…

The way things are going if a SWAT team rolled up to my house ( I know this is going to sound silly). I'd call 911 and have them on speaker phone coaching me through it. Most people are not trained to handled these situations properly and they will be nervous and start slipping up which a not well trained or inexperienced officer may wrongly interpret as suspicious/dangerous. If I am truly innocent then perhaps I am…

They aren’t going to give you the chance to call 911.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#235

Post by joeax » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 7:43 PM UTC

sverige wrote: post #73

Most of the comments have to do with the police interaction. My question is, what can be done to discourage swatting? My reflex reaction is to give everyone involved long prison sentences, and some aggressive prosecution of other incidents, so that people tempted to engage in swatting are discouraged by some realistic chance of doing real prison time for doing something so reckless and stupid. The guy who made the ca…

Normally I'd agree but the US already has the largest prison population in the world. By far. We are obsessed with long and lengthy prison sentences even for the most minuscule non-victim offenses i.e. 20 years for pot possession (meanwhile armed robbers get 3-5 years). Terms like "mandatory minimum" and "zero tolerance" get thrown around by politicians like it's candy to get themselves elected, with little to no regard from the general public on the monetary and psychological costs (although the private prison industry and the cottage industries around it stand to make big bucks).

A solution to all of this is to eliminate victimless crimes, hold police accountable when they mess up, and switch to more of a house arrest model for crimes like this. Force the prankster to pay restitution to the victim's family. Make him work it off with 1000s of hours of community service if needed. But let's quit crowding prisons at taxpayer expense.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#236

Post by ryanwaggoner » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 7:44 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #198

WhatIsDukkha wrote: post #100

What bothers me about these situations is just the entire idea of "SWAT" as practiced. You are a cop with 5+ other cops. You all pull your guns. Someone comes to the door, groggy in the middle of the night. They may or may not understand you are police. They may or may not believe you are the police. They are definitely confused/frightened/angry by your presence. We now begin the dice rolling process. Since every pol…

What's more, are those SWAT teams trained policemen or scared little children? Because if they are the latter, why do they go with guns and ammo and equipment enough to equip a small army just to arrest some kid who's selling weed or some guy who threatened their neighbors and such? SWAT teams should be for breaking into Escobar's hideout or stopping angry mobs, not for responding to random phone calls and simple cas…

The overuse of SWAT is ridiculous, but sending them into a shots fired / hostage / bodies on the ground situation is entirely appropriate. And no different from most other developed countries. If you go into a house in Germany, shoot someone, and then threaten to shoot everyone else, do you really think you’re going to get an officer or two casually knocking on the door without weapons at the ready?

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#237

Post by matt-attack » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 7:44 PM UTC

bonzini wrote: post #180

r00fus wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was a mistaken address SWAT ing. How was the person supposed to know? Police officers that shoot ppl should be held liable as well as the SWAT caller.

Or is it whoever (edit: in the Wichita police) dispatched them without checking the details of the call, or adequately briefing them that the details were not clear? Because the guy who shot made a huge and deadly mistake, but the fact that you can call 911 and have someone SWATted is a big problem on its own.

SWATing should just lead to a bit of wasted time, and a “sorry to bother you sir”. With proper response procedure it should be a complete non-issue. Placing blame on anyone but the cops is completely discounting the problem.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#238

Post by freedomben » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 7:44 PM UTC

varjag wrote: post #220

freedomben wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Problem is that they typically lack the proper training and the discipline required, and act too hastily. What you are asking them to be is super human, indeed even better than a computer could in the same situation. No amount of "proper training" or "discipline" can prepare you to make perfect decisions based on imperfect data (your sensory perception, plus all the data that isn't present such as must be read from…

Somehow police in the rest of developed world are able to resist shooting a great deal of suspects on the spot. Find what's different in America and fix it.

I agree. I'm far from an expert in this field, but my general observations is that we have a huge police presence in America. They are also empowered way beyond what our founders intended. That for one needs to change. It may also help if we stopped criminalizing every little thing, and giving our Environmental Protection Agency a freaking SWAT team[1].

[1]: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/09/14/armed-epa-agents-...

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#239

Post by rabboRubble » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 7:44 PM UTC

meri_dian wrote: post #107

WhatIsDukkha wrote: post #100

What bothers me about these situations is just the entire idea of "SWAT" as practiced. You are a cop with 5+ other cops. You all pull your guns. Someone comes to the door, groggy in the middle of the night. They may or may not understand you are police. They may or may not believe you are the police. They are definitely confused/frightened/angry by your presence. We now begin the dice rolling process. Since every pol…

SWAT is usually only involved when it's clear there is an immediate and present danger. So of course they are going to be ready with weapons drawn. Do you want them to just waltz into (probably) dangerous situations with their hands in their pockets whistling a tune? Edit: The amount of willful ignorance displayed on HN regarding law enforcement is staggering. It's sad to see how many people here view police as the b…

I have moderate sympathy with police for the difficulties of their job. If they find it uncomfortable or find themselves unable to handle the rigors, like the rest of us in society, they can get a new job that is better suited.

When it comes to police shooting people, I have little sympathy. They are the only class of people in society who can kill and under most circumstances, face no real consequence for their actions unlike the rest of their citizen compatriots. With that privilege comes a greater responsibility in my assessment.

I have absolutely zero sympathy for post-shooting employment difficulties police face who have, unlike nearly the rest of society, union protections and can not be terminated at will. When my employment circumstances are equal to a police officer, either by at-will provisions being extended to that class of citizen, or by me having access to a union of equal effectiveness, will I have one iota of sympathy for cops who find scrutiny too hard to bear.

Police officers are free to do like the rest of us and find a new job.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#240

Post by scarface74 » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 7:44 PM UTC

Dove wrote: post #70

lb1lf wrote: post #18

Coming from a country where the police spends more time developing people skills than doing gun practice, it never ceases to puzzle me how the solution to any situation appears to be to shoot anything that moves on the flimsiest of assumptions, then figure out what happened afterwards. Now, I appreciate that the police in the US does face a population with more guns on hand than the Norwegian police does; this surely…

I don't think it's reasonable or effective to entirely expect police to solve this problem. Here is the account from the article: Livingston said when the door opened, officers gave Finch commands to put his hands up and walk toward them. He complied for a "very short time" and put his hands back down. He raised them again, and then lowered them for a second time, Livingston said. "The male then turned towards the of…

I think probably the most effective way to solve the problem would be to make people better aware of what makes you appear threatening and non-threatening in a confrontation.

Unfortunately in America, what makes you seem threatening is based on the color of your skin.

I am an African American living in a predominantly White county in the south that was made famous 30 years ago nationally for being anti-minority.

While, the county has changed somewhat because of an influx of younger people to the burbs, I still worry when my son starts driving because he is a big tall dude even though he would never hurt a fly, has lived in the burbs all of his life, and his friendship circle is like the cast of a WB show.