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Ask HN: How have you learned a speaking language?

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Re: Ask HN: How have you learned a speaking language?

#31
I'm of the written/read type. The advantage you have with these skills is that you have all the time you need to acquire them. This was okay to me while I didn't have to interact with native speakers. When the time came, I found myself unable to interact (due to lack of conversational skills...)

The thing that helped me the most was chatting by msn with my coworkers (not cellphone). You have the structure of a conversation with read/write times. You also get the latest jargon and regionalisms in written. Don't overlook this useful resource!!!

Re: Ask HN: How have you learned a speaking language?

#32
I took Italian for two semesters, an hour a day five days a week, and was pretty good by the end of it. It took me three years of Hebrew two days a week and then a month in Haifa to get to the same level.

If you only care about conversation and not reading or writing, a foreign girlfriend can work well too, if she's sufficiently patient.

Re: Ask HN: How have you learned a speaking language?

#33
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having taken a Masters in Linguistics, and learned 3 languages besides my native one, I'd say that 1, 3 + 4 are basically the key to learning any language. It really is "Use it or lose it" when it comes to learning a new language.

Would you say you're a rare case, as far as learning three languages? Many that pursue linguistics seem offended when asked how many languages they speak.

No, I learned them a long time before I did linguistics, in the course of other non-linguistics pursuits. I got into linguistics later on because of the computational linguistics angle.

Re: Ask HN: How have you learned a speaking language?

#34
post #3

I love this blog: http://www.fluentin3months.com/ He has a number of reviews of software packages and websites, along with his own "language hacking" guide.

I became skeptical of him after listening to his attempts at Thai.His fluent goal was set at...

"I want to be able to correctly speak the 5 tones of Thai and be able to read a given text of several sentences aloud to a local (who is not necessarily familiar with English and European accents), so that they can understand it."

And he failed at that... http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/327591-one-guys-effort-t...

Re: Ask HN: How have you learned a speaking language?

#35
If you have nobody to practice with, you are gonna get nowhere. If you don't know anybody who speaks the language, can't get reading material written in it or don't have a TV channel in it, it's gonna be a rough one. You don't learn a language by reading a book, you do it by using it. Ultimately, if the language isn't useful to you, don't learn it (useful as in you plan to travel there or do business with them).

Unless you want company, don't take group classes in an institute. It's a waste of money and time, because you learn at the other's speed; schools are only useful if you need to take an exam and get a diploma.

You are way better off getting a couple of books with grammar and tapes that you can play over and over again until you finally get it. This step is cheaper than an institute. After a while (not that long), hire a private teacher who can correct your pronunciation, answer your questions, teach you about idioms and slang and, if he's a native, tell you cool stuff about the country (which will wet your curiosity and thus keep you going). This step is more expensive. Beware natives who aren't teachers, they are only useful to get some practice (after you know a little and can actually have a conversation).

Use flash cards to learn new words. These are pretty useful and pretty much mandatory when learning to read and write Chinese and other languages with weird characters - like Arabic.

Grab a regular index card and cut it in half (or more if you are pinching pennies); write on one side the meaning of the word, on the other side, write it in your target language and then upside-down write it's pronunciation. This way, in one card you have the writing, pronunciation and meaning of a word. Keep a batch of them in you pocket/wallet at all times; to practice, simply grab some, read one of the sides and: a) if you read it in the target language, make sure you pronounce it correctly and know it's meaning (this is why you write the pronunciation upside-down, so you can read the word and test if you can pronounce it without peeking); b) if you read the other side, make sure you can pronounce the word and write it correctly.

(If you are learning a language with a Latin alphabet, make sure you use different colors for each side of the card, so you can tell them apart and sort them quickly.)

Use drills. These are exercises developed during WWII to teach Japanese and German to Americans when time was short and teachers were the enemy.

There's 3 kinds of drills:

a) Patterned response drills: ask a question, answer it; change some word in the question and ask it again, answer using the same pattern than before, but with a change that reflects the one made in the question. Example (in Spanish): 1. ¿Ya comiste? (Q) Estoy comiendo ahora mismo (A) ; 2. ¿Ya corriste? (Q) Estoy corriendo ahora mismo (A)

b) Substitution: Given a sentence and a replacement word, re-write the sentence by correctly using the replacement (you have to know what to substitute). Example (Spanish): 1. José va a comprar un carro (sentence), avión (replacement) -> José va a comprar un avión (result); 2. José va a comprar un carro (sentence), nosotros (replacement) -> Nosotros vamos a comprar un carro (result).

c) Situational: Imagine a situation where you need to chat with someone else, and go ahead and write that conversation down. It's like writing an essay.

Do a couple thousand of drills and you are ready for anything :-)

Re: Ask HN: How have you learned a speaking language?

#36
I learned 3(ish) languages with actually no real intention. Its nothing mind-blowing - just a story. These concepts should pretty much be well known.

First one - English: I pretty much grasped the concept of English language simply by watching (a lot - and for years) Cartoon Network as a kid (FYI: my parents don't speak languages other than Croatian). And I probably watched all those cartoons over and over as they were replayed. When I got to the point where English was thought in school, I pretty much knew everything they were gonna teach us - it was just brushing out the knowledge correctly, and most importantly - putting it to use. Later, since I was around computers (and even later - internet), it all came to me naturally word-by-word since I was using English actively.

German: During those active cartoon watching days, Cartoon Network got "locked", and I switched to a German program where I watched (german synced) anime. The "putting it to use" part did not happen with German language, so even tho I cant really speak properly today (never studied or used it), I do however find it that I can understand 85% of the time exactly what they are saying (i can even read properly many things). I have a really hard time doing the talking since I've always listened (the cartoons) and never actually talked - never put it to use.

Today, as a 20ish year old guy - I'm studying Japanese (anime history & Go board game - kinda just kicked in), and I find it that I have a really hard time expanding my vocabulary. I am missing all that easy long-time immersion in the language that previously did the trick. Now I gotta hard-study it. I guess I could watch a lot of Japanese movies & anime but I don't really have the time or will to do so today.

Re: Ask HN: How have you learned a speaking language?

#37
post #27
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but don't forget pronunciation.

This is actually the most important thing. Have an awful vocabulary, a rudimentary grammar, but get the pronunciation right. You can always buff up on your words or rules, but getting rid of an atrocious accent is very hard to do. Utterly impossible if you're Styrian. I wonder whether singing helps. The overall musical structure might make proper phonetics easier to memorize; on the other hand I've heard quite a lot…

I won't go as far as to say that singing is ineffective but, putting it at another way, you can sing in a foreign language pretty well without being able to speak that language.

Re: Ask HN: How have you learned a speaking language?

#38
I've taken one year of Arabic. The first two quarters were with a white girl from Alabama who studied at the AUC. She was great. The last quarter was from a Moroccan, he was not. Point being don't put too much weight into having a native speaker.

I think the Pimsleur audio lessons are nice for Spanish and French, not so much for Arabic. I think the best route (barring immersion study) is to take classes, or do self study with the Al-Kitaab textbook and then take more advanced classes (as my first teacher did).

Re: Ask HN: How have you learned a speaking language?

#39
post #7

I have to learn a language for my graduate program. I have been learning German using the Michel Thomas audio program. It isn't perfect, but I do feel like I have learned a lot with relative ease -- much more easily than I learned Spanish in middle and high school classes. Advantages: * Michel Thomas CDs are significantly cheaper than software-based programs * audio format means you can study on your commute, rather…

Michel Thomas is good. One issue is that he is originally from Germany, so the german edition is probably great. He teaches a number of different languages (such as French), where you won't be learning from a native. He did spend time growing up there, and you'll probably hear his story about how he fooled the Germans with his French. Even so, it's not the same as hearing a native Parisian.

The other feature/problem is that you're hearing the two other students learning with you. They will often make the similar mistakes that you will make, which is encouraging. However, I think that 1 out of 3 fluent speakers on a tape is less effective for learning the correct pronunciation.

An interesting method, nonetheless.

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