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LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

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Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#221

Post by masklinn »

mmjaa wrote: post #193
masklinn wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At what point does the average citizen look at "SWAT death as an option for what could happen to me today" and think, 'well .. this is okay'? The average citizen saw 20 1st-graders being shot 5 years and 2 weeks ago and decided it was OK with that. Citizens weaponising police (I have a hard time calling that law enforcement) against other citizens barely even ranks.

So you are saying the event horizon for police brutality is closer than that of the citizens willingness to move the goalpost for how violent things should/could/can be? Yeah, the point is, we are really, really beyond the point where something legitimately real, and not just apathetic, should be done about this shit. Citizens need to start asking for disarmament: of themselves, and others. We do not need a society w…

> So you are saying the event horizon for police brutality is closer than that of the citizens willingness to move the goalpost for how violent things should/could/can be?

I would say so yes, if you mean that I put the "police brutality" bar lower than the "citizen on citizen" brutality (assuming levels go up).

> To me, as a technologist, this is a problem that can be solved, "can" being the key word.

Of course it can, other countries have done so in the past, the issue has never been about ability, always will. And in the US specifically, the ability to shoot other people has always been a privilege, only to be relinquished if the "wrong" people move towards accessing it.

Every time that subject comes up, I wonder whether the fastest way to get nationwide gun buyback & control in the US would be to have a program massively train and (legally) arm black communities. After all, that's pretty much how gun control passed in Cali, authored by a republican, with support of the NRA, signed by a republican governor who stated

> no reason why on the street today a citizen should be carrying loaded weapons

and that guns were a

> ridiculous way to solve problems that have to be solved among people of good will.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#222

Post by ouid »

freedomben wrote: post #185
ivanhoe wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have to approach the situation prepared for the worst case scenario. Problem is that they typically lack the proper training and the discipline required, and act too hastily. There's also a huge problem with the whole that macho, gun loving, power-tripping culture, it just makes things worse, wrong profile of people gets that kind of job.

> Problem is that they typically lack the proper training and the discipline required, and act too hastily. What you are asking them to be is super human, indeed even better than a computer could in the same situation. No amount of "proper training" or "discipline" can prepare you to make perfect decisions based on imperfect data (your sensory perception, plus all the data that isn't present such as must be read from…

"better than a computer" isn't really a superlative position in human interaction.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#223

Post by stordoff »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #16
bob_theslob646 wrote: post #10

Edit: I didn't realize that it takes about 40 minutes for a tranquilizer to take effect, if they hit the target in the right spot. I apologize for my stupidity.

Because life isn’t a movie and there aren’t tranquilizers that work reliably fast enough to avoid the other party shooting back?

It's mentioned on Wikipedia that this is more or less the reason, FWIW: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tranquillizer_gun#Military_and...

I'd also add there's the complicating factor of tolerance depending on the agent used (even if it took effect fast enough). Opiates would be a good choice (due to being relatively easily reversible by naloxone), but obviously would have diminished/unpredictable effects on a heavy opiate user. Likewise, benzodiazepines can have a huge range of active doses - a few hundred milligrams of, say, Temazepam could be bad news for a non-user (especially if they've been drinking), but I'm aware of people who have been awake and active despite having double that in their system.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#224

Post by ryanwaggoner »

DanBC wrote: post #204
ryanwaggoner wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, that’s not how due process works. You don’t know what happened or what the evidence is. And from your responses, I’m going to go out on a limb and guess that you have no law enforcement experience or training. Sorry, but the outrage you feel upon reading a few news stories online is vastly insufficient to imprison another human. You’re talking about simple mob justice, that’s all.

> You’re talking about simple mob justice, that’s all. Unfortunate turn of phrase, when it's the police who kill over a thousand citizens without trial or often arrest each year.

And that’s a horrible problem, but the answer isn’t more senseless violence as payback.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#225

Post by FireBeyond »

meri_dian wrote: post #107
WhatIsDukkha wrote: post #100

What bothers me about these situations is just the entire idea of "SWAT" as practiced. You are a cop with 5+ other cops. You all pull your guns. Someone comes to the door, groggy in the middle of the night. They may or may not understand you are police. They may or may not believe you are the police. They are definitely confused/frightened/angry by your presence. We now begin the dice rolling process. Since every pol…

SWAT is usually only involved when it's clear there is an immediate and present danger. So of course they are going to be ready with weapons drawn. Do you want them to just waltz into (probably) dangerous situations with their hands in their pockets whistling a tune? Edit: The amount of willful ignorance displayed on HN regarding law enforcement is staggering. It's sad to see how many people here view police as the b…

> The amount of willful ignorance displayed on HN regarding law enforcement is staggering.

Speaking as someone in Fire/EMS who has friends who are on SWAT teams, and as someone who has personally trained with SWAT teams for active shooter situations, going into unsecured scenes to remove patients while under the cover of law enforcement... I'm still going to disagree with you, and with the assertion of wilful ignorance. Speaking of which,

> when it is clear there is immediate danger

It evidently wasn't that clear. Even when I go to a structure fire, one of the confirming criteria is "multiple callers". To be clear, "one of", not deciding, or otherwise.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#226

Post by hackerbob »

coldtea wrote: post #200
hackerbob wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way things are going if a SWAT team rolled up to my house ( I know this is going to sound silly). I'd call 911 and have them on speaker phone coaching me through it. Most people are not trained to handled these situations properly and they will be nervous and start slipping up which a not well trained or inexperienced officer may wrongly interpret as suspicious/dangerous. If I am truly innocent then perhaps I am…

> The way things are going if a SWAT team rolled up to my house ( I know this is going to sound silly). I'd call 911 and have them on speaker phone coaching me through it. Who said you're going to get any chance to call anybody? They could just as easily break into your house shouting and pointing guns...

Of course there are scenarios out of our control. In this one particularly the victim walked out of the house and then was shot after he slipped up on one of the commands.

Not to blame the victim, but his mistake lead to their over reaction. My point is even us citizens aren't experienced these situations and some guidance could help.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#227

Post by cwbrandsma »

username223 wrote: post #147
WhatIsDukkha wrote: post #100

What bothers me about these situations is just the entire idea of "SWAT" as practiced. You are a cop with 5+ other cops. You all pull your guns. Someone comes to the door, groggy in the middle of the night. They may or may not understand you are police. They may or may not believe you are the police. They are definitely confused/frightened/angry by your presence. We now begin the dice rolling process. Since every pol…

> This process is designed to have a weapon be discharged. Unfortunately, as a US civilian you need to be smart about de-escalating encounters with underpaid rage-monster cops with something close to legal immunity. Your goal should be to avoid injury or death until you can get to a lawyer.

If you are a cop in this situation, not the lead officer, a grunt among other grunts. You are told the basic situation is that shots have been fired and women and children are in danger...as are you and your team. There is an ARMED individual in the house. Your police training also tells you there is a split second between you and one of your team getting killed as well. Your team members are also husbands and fathers. Your version of deescalating the situation is to remove the suspect as quickly as possible before anything REALLY bad happens (wife gets killed, kid gets killed, you get killed). These aren't "rage-monsters", they are afraid of what could happen.

Also, it is good to remember, the worst case situation, is what cops often have to deal with. But those cases often don't make the news. Even in my small city, these worst case situations happen.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#228

Post by FireBeyond »

meri_dian wrote: post #145
grey-area wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SWAT is usually only involved when it's clear there is an immediate and present danger. That is demonstrably false. For reference, start with this case.

Police were responding, in this case, to a call made by someone claiming to be armed and holding his family hostage. You do not assume a call is fraudulent in a situation like that. You assume the worst. What happened to the civilian is a tragedy. He should not have been killed. But the person most at fault here is the one who lied and called in SWAT in the first place.

A call from someone calling in via a VOIP line that was effectively out of country, yet pretending to be the neighbor. Corroboration is a good thing, and based on my (first hand) knowledge of what information shows up on a 911 dispatchers screen about call origin, should have prompted more 'skepticism'. Little details like "it's a one story house" (when in fact it's two story), and the like.

> But the person most at fault here is the one who lied and called in SWAT in the first place.

This I absolutely agree with.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#229

Post by jeffdavis »

The immediate reaction seems to be that the police are too militarized or not disciplined enough, but it's not clear to me that these claims apply in this situation.

Police militarization is a real problem when it happens for non-violent crimes. But this was thought to be a serious hostage situation, and I'm not sure there were a lot of good options here.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#230

Post by Xorlev »

seunosewa wrote: post #209
freedomben wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Problem is that they typically lack the proper training and the discipline required, and act too hastily. What you are asking them to be is super human, indeed even better than a computer could in the same situation. No amount of "proper training" or "discipline" can prepare you to make perfect decisions based on imperfect data (your sensory perception, plus all the data that isn't present such as must be read from…

>> 2. You wrongly kill and end up in prison Actually, part of the problem is that you never end up in prison for wrongly killing.

Even when it's not pretty clear it's not an accident. See http://www.chicagotribune.com/g00/news/nationworld/ct-daniel... (Daniel Shaver killing).
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