Legal Marijuana Isn’t the Boon Small Businesses Thought It Would Be • Hacker News Board

Re: Legal Marijuana Isn’t the Boon Small Businesses Thought It Would Be

#51

Post by rabidrat » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 1:36 AM UTC

AndrewUnmuted wrote: post #36

yodsanklai wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Today's cannabis is, in general, much more potent than it used to be. I hear that a lot (especially from anti-legalization people), but I don't believe it makes any difference. What makes a difference to the consumer is the amount of cannabinoids consumed, not the concentration in a given amount of weed. The typical weed consumption experience is to vaporize/smoke/eat some small amount, and reiterate until satisfac…

> One could imagine a scenario where a user is caught off-guard by a super strong weed, but I don't see this happening. Standard THC rates are 15-20%(?) you're not going to get much more than that amount and you will always notice at the first inhalation if the weed is more potent than what you're used to. For infrequent users, I believe the potency does make a difference because undesired effects could come with as…

I have a hard time finding my preference of 15% THC unless it's CBD-dominant (and then THC is usually below even 5-10%). Here in WA, THC amounts are generally 20-30%.

Re: Legal Marijuana Isn’t the Boon Small Businesses Thought It Would Be

#52

Post by freeflight » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 1:38 AM UTC

wils1245 wrote: post #3

Two things of interest that the article doesn’t go into: - Taxes on weed in CA are going to be very high, ~20%. This may drive black market sales. - Online ordering through Eaze is popular, which might drive the familiar winner take all online commerce market dynamic. A lot of people don’t care for the dispensary experience. At the end of the day, this is an agricultural product, and a commodity. It was optimisticall…

> I have a feeling that for most people weed is weed.

That oversimplification works both ways: For many people, beer is just beer. And just like with beer, there are endless variations of cannabis strains, different ways or preparation and different ways of consuming. Just the way cannabis is cured can make a vast difference in taste and effect.

With alcohol, many places often have centuries-old traditions for consumption and brewing, cannabis just started going down that route, so imho it's just logical that there's a lot of catching up to happen because most of the knowledge we collected is stuck in the realm of "illegality" and spread thin between users, with no real way of consolidating it in a useful way.

It's gonna take a lot of time to lose the stigma which has been, purposely, build up around cannabis for decades.

Re: Legal Marijuana Isn’t the Boon Small Businesses Thought It Would Be

#53

Post by Stratoscope » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 1:48 AM UTC

natecavanaugh wrote: post #44

wils1245 wrote: post #3

Two things of interest that the article doesn’t go into: - Taxes on weed in CA are going to be very high, ~20%. This may drive black market sales. - Online ordering through Eaze is popular, which might drive the familiar winner take all online commerce market dynamic. A lot of people don’t care for the dispensary experience. At the end of the day, this is an agricultural product, and a commodity. It was optimisticall…

> Taxes on weed in CA are going to be very high, ~20%. This may drive black market sales. The last I heard was that those with a prescription wouldn't have to pay the tax, and since it's so easy to get a prescription, at least ATM, I would imagine that would be the first avenue before the black market (heck, I would even say that getting it from friends who grow their own would be a gray market angle that would proba…

Taxes in Oakland are increasing from 14.25% to 34.25%, and in San Jose they are increasing from 19.25% to the same 34.25%. [1]

Medical users with a county Medical Marijuana Information Card (MMIC) are only exempt from a portion of this, the 8.5% sales and use tax. [2]

To get an MMIC you first need a doctor's recommendation (typically $40/year). The maximum cost of an MMIC from the county is $100/year, or $50/year for Medi-Cal patients.

So to save the 8.5% sales tax, you need to visit a cannabis doctor, wait in line, and pay $40, then visit the county public health department, wait in line again, and pay as much as another $100.

If you are a heavy user, this could save you some money, but I have a feeling that most people in California who are currently medical users will simply drop the medical recommendation and buy under the new adult-use rules.

[1] https://www.shopharborside.com/adult-use-regs.html (expand the "new taxes" item)

[2] https://www.thegreencross.org/newsletter

Re: Legal Marijuana Isn’t the Boon Small Businesses Thought It Would Be

#54

Post by freeflight » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 2:01 AM UTC

yodsanklai wrote: post #32

root_axis wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Today people need to be reasonably sure that what they're getting will meet their needs, because for some one hit may send them spiraling in the totally wrong direction. A user with anxiety issues may need to entirely steer clear of sativas because they are known to cause anxiety attacks. But someone who needs to be around other people may need to avoid indicas because they are known to cause delayed responses and…

One datapoint, but I witnessed an anxiety attack on a first time cannabis user (who consumed homegrown indica - sativa are usually more difficult to grow indoor as they get taller). My conviction is that all these theories on strains having such different effects is mostly BS. Until we have scientific evidence, I stay very skeptical.

> My conviction is that all these theories on strains having such different effects is mostly BS.

How scientific do you want your evidence to be? [0] It's pretty much a fact that different strains have different ratios of cannabinoids and terpenes, these can additionally be altered by the way the cannabis is cured and stored.

Badly cured cannabis still has lot's of chlorophyll in it, making it rough to smoke and changing its effect profile, many people get headaches/depressions from smoking such cannabis.

In that regard, your "one datapoint" is nothing but an anecdotal experience which can be explained by a number of reasons: People who are already prone to anxiety attacks can have their moods increased if they feel stressed out by the whole situation of being "the center of attention" for trying the first time. Especially with a high THC strain with barely any CBD in it to counter the THC effect [1]

Just like overfocusing on trying to "feel the effects" can give the user the impression he's not feeling any effects at all, which is something I've witnessed plenty of times with first-time users: They will be sitting there trying to focus on the effects, pretend they don't feel any, while not even realizing they are already on a small trip with their whole "Look at me I'm not feeling anything over here!" behavior, while they expected the effects to be something like seeing pink elephants roaming trough the room.

A lot of this has to do with decades-old stigma about the effects of cannabis forming a lot of users expectations about its effects.

[0] http://www.amjbot.org/content/91/6/966.full

[1] https://prohbtd.com/how-thc-and-cbd-interact

Re: Legal Marijuana Isn’t the Boon Small Businesses Thought It Would Be

#55

Post by jayd16 » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 2:26 AM UTC

walrus01 wrote: post #9

One of the things left out entirely is that WA state cannabis farmers are not yet allowed to grow outdoor under sunlight, so they're facing massive price pressure in wholesale $/gram sold to processors, but still have the huge operating costs of running indoor farms with electrical bills for lighting, lighting equipment, ventilation, climate control etc. I honestly don't understand this, since it is a lot less expens…

A fence only matters if you have a guard on patrol and that easily offsets the electricity cost.

Re: Legal Marijuana Isn’t the Boon Small Businesses Thought It Would Be

#56

Post by twblalock » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 2:50 AM UTC

wils1245 wrote: post #3

Two things of interest that the article doesn’t go into: - Taxes on weed in CA are going to be very high, ~20%. This may drive black market sales. - Online ordering through Eaze is popular, which might drive the familiar winner take all online commerce market dynamic. A lot of people don’t care for the dispensary experience. At the end of the day, this is an agricultural product, and a commodity. It was optimisticall…

I'm sure some black market activity will remain because of the tax rate, but I'm also sure most middle- and upper-class people would prefer to pay more for their weed at a legal venue than risk arrest by buying from a black market dealer.

There also exists a black market for cigarettes because of taxes, but the vast majority of smokers buy cigarettes legally because it is easier and safer and runs no risk of arrest.

Re: Legal Marijuana Isn’t the Boon Small Businesses Thought It Would Be

#57

Post by xocyabencl » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 3:10 AM UTC

40acres wrote: post #7

wils1245 wrote: post #3

Two things of interest that the article doesn’t go into: - Taxes on weed in CA are going to be very high, ~20%. This may drive black market sales. - Online ordering through Eaze is popular, which might drive the familiar winner take all online commerce market dynamic. A lot of people don’t care for the dispensary experience. At the end of the day, this is an agricultural product, and a commodity. It was optimisticall…

Have you tried Eaze? Could you describe the experience? There's a couple of online sites in Oregon (where I am based) but they don't reach my area and the local dispensary is 10 minutes away.

I've used Eaze. You pick an item from a menu in the website or app (although the Android app doesn't work for me), then someone drives up 20 minutes later and hands the item over. In my case I've gone outside to the driver's passenger window, they didn't come to my door. Think Uber, except the driver takes longer to arrive and gives you weed.

It's like any other delivery service, but I suspect the economics work better than food delivery because users make larger orders, you don't need to pick up from restaurants, and freshness is not as important (comparing to a central kitchen for food delivery).

Re: Legal Marijuana Isn’t the Boon Small Businesses Thought It Would Be

#58

Post by tomcam » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 3:25 AM UTC

renlo wrote: post #27

root_axis wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Today people need to be reasonably sure that what they're getting will meet their needs, because for some one hit may send them spiraling in the totally wrong direction. A user with anxiety issues may need to entirely steer clear of sativas because they are known to cause anxiety attacks. But someone who needs to be around other people may need to avoid indicas because they are known to cause delayed responses and…

It's pretty common knowledge among heavy weed smokers that those strains have those effects. Sometimes science lags a bit behind ...

Science lags behind stoners. Duly noted.

Re: Legal Marijuana Isn’t the Boon Small Businesses Thought It Would Be

#59

Post by danenania » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 3:30 AM UTC

delbel wrote: post #29

root_axis wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Today people need to be reasonably sure that what they're getting will meet their needs, because for some one hit may send them spiraling in the totally wrong direction. A user with anxiety issues may need to entirely steer clear of sativas because they are known to cause anxiety attacks. But someone who needs to be around other people may need to avoid indicas because they are known to cause delayed responses and…

THC inhibits the GABA neurotransmitter. GABA is responsible for the "calmness" factor in the brain. Low levels of GABA cause anxiety, paranoia, etc. Certain strains have different terpenes profiles. Terepenes are responsible for the aroma of the flower. Some terpenes change the way THC is absorbed, including preventing the inhibition of the THC GABA effect, which is why terpenes are also responsible for the aromather…

That's really interesting. Do you know of any sources that list these sorts of properties for strains (and that are reliable/empirical)? I presume the tags on sites like Leafly that mark a strain 'calming' or 'good for depression' are anecdotal and not based in chemistry?

Re: Legal Marijuana Isn’t the Boon Small Businesses Thought It Would Be

#60

Post by StanislavPetrov » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 4:41 AM UTC

That's because what we need is deregulation of cannabis, not "legalization". You need only look at the massive tome of over 200 pages that California has proposed to regulate recreational marijuana starting in 2018 to see what the issue is. Laws and regulations have their place in society to a certain degree. Our country has gone way, way overboard as far as laws and regulations are concerned. This massive over-litigation on every level acts as a massive drain on our resources, our economy, and our society as a whole. Any regulations "needed" for cannabis should be able to fit on a single sheet of paper - but we would be far better off if the government had no role at all. The burdensome, poorly-written, oft-conflicting tangle of regulations written by unintelligent politicians at the behest of their wealthy donors do far more harm than good in most cases, and certainly as it regards cannabis. It isn't some sort of an accident that startup costs for regulatory compliance are massive - that's the whole reason for their existence. We are $21 trillion dollars and debt on the federal level and saturated with even more debt on every level from state to county to village. Our bridges and roads are falling apart, our pensions are underfunded and every year more Americans slide into poverty. Not only is the nanny state a terrible idea, but its an idea that we no longer afford - especially when the nanny is a corrupt Wall Street crony.