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Concussion doctor says he found CTE in living NFL player

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Re: Concussion doctor says he found CTE in living NFL player

#171

Post by rsync »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #36
robbiep wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a highly cultural-specific viewpoint. For example Rugby union, league, AFL etc are all contact sports with huge followings - I can’t understand let alone (and probably because of my lack of understanding) stand NFL which I personally think culturally encapsulates an American approach to the world - this is the offence team, this is defence, let’s pad up and beat the shit out of the opposing side. Compared to t…

> The most impressive athletes in any sport in the world are in the NFL When I read this I immediately thought this person has never heard of Nadia Comãneci. Nadia Elena Comăneci (Romanian pronunciation: [ˈnadi.a koməˈnet͡ʃʲ] (About this sound listen); born November 12, 1961) is a Romanian gymnast. An Olympic gold medalist, Comăneci is the first athlete in the history of the sport to be awarded a perfect score of 10.…

"An Olympic gold medalist, Comăneci is the first athlete in the history of the sport to be awarded a perfect score of 10.0"

But then imagine that, in that same olympics, there was a 6'5" tall human, weighing 320 pounds, that scored a 7.

What Nadia did was amazing. What NFL players are doing in the 21st century is otherworldly.

Re: Concussion doctor says he found CTE in living NFL player

#172

Post by smt88 »

logicchains wrote: post #136
smt88 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) I find that hard to believe. Where did you read this? Injuries-per-minute playing rugby are surely higher than when riding a car. 2) Rugby is recreation. Riding in a car is a necessary part of daily life. Regardless of risk, one can be given up much more easily.

>Riding in a car is a necessary part of daily life. That's a very America-centric point of view, and completely not true if you live in a city designed to accommodate high-density living (or at the very least one without terrible public transport).

It's not America-centric, it's anyplace-that-requires-a-car-centric.

If you're putting a child in a car, it's safe to assume it's not usually for recreational purposes. It's usually because it's the easiest (or only) way to move them a certain distance.

Re: Concussion doctor says he found CTE in living NFL player

#173

Post by wils1245 »

dlp211 wrote: post #154
jjie2221 wrote: post #152

Question for football fans: Would the game suffer that much if we changed the rules to reduce contact? Say, like flag football?

Yes, significantly. One of the biggest draws of football, for better or worst, is the tackling. People watch to see the big hit and the great escapes to evade the tackling. Here is just a single example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8geJp5mVLA If the game used flags, the quarterback would have almost certainly been down. Instead he runs for a first down and keeps his offense on the field.

Spot on. As further example, check out Barry Sanders highlights:

https://youtu.be/eygZLsdKGQM

The NFL in slow motion can be beautiful to watch in slow motion. These plays aren’t nearly as exciting without the risk of contact and Sanders’ opportunity and ability to break tackles.

That doesn’t mean the game as we know it shouldn’t go.

Re: Concussion doctor says he found CTE in living NFL player

#174

Post by smt88 »

outsideoflife wrote: post #137
smt88 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) I find that hard to believe. Where did you read this? Injuries-per-minute playing rugby are surely higher than when riding a car. 2) Rugby is recreation. Riding in a car is a necessary part of daily life. Regardless of risk, one can be given up much more easily.

> Rugby is recreation. Riding in a car is a necessary part of daily life. Regardless of risk, one can be given up much more easily. Exercise is a necessary part of a healthy life. If Rugby motivates you to stay fit, then maybe it improves your chances of a healthy life

Your comment isn't really pertinent to my point. It's like saying that steak is necessary because eating is necessary.

Yes, exercise is necessary, but rugby isn't the only way to exercise, nor is it nearly the safest.

Cars aren't the only way to travel in general, but, for many people in many situations, the other options aren't viable.

Re: Concussion doctor says he found CTE in living NFL player

#175

Post by smt88 »

brians wrote: post #138
smt88 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) I find that hard to believe. Where did you read this? Injuries-per-minute playing rugby are surely higher than when riding a car. 2) Rugby is recreation. Riding in a car is a necessary part of daily life. Regardless of risk, one can be given up much more easily.

Indeed, it’s not per minute. But measure the injuries from a year of car riding vs a year of rugby, and our collective decision to make autos part of daily life looks more interesting

It still just seems like apples-to-oranges to me. It's perfectly rational to accept the risk of transportation, as transportation is often vital. The same isn't true of things done for pleasure, like sports.

Re: Concussion doctor says he found CTE in living NFL player

#176

Post by anigbrowl »

acchow wrote: post #20
anigbrowl wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The very first line of the story says what it is: Researchers have identified the degenerative brain disease known as CTE... It's a newspaper rather than a scientific journal so I think they can be forgiven for not expanding the acronym, just as newspapers commonly report heart attacks rather than myocardial infarctions.

For the vast majority of their readers "Chronic traumatic encephalopathy" is just as uninformative as "CTE".

Well yes, that's the point of saying 'degenerative brain disease' instead.

Re: Concussion doctor says he found CTE in living NFL player

#177

Post by outsideoflife »

rsync wrote: post #166
outsideoflife wrote: post #89

For my American cousins I thought I would mention a little more about Rugby Union. Concussion is less of a problem in Rugby than in American football, and this is not an accident. Rugby is addressing this in several ways. 1) Years of rule changes, and stricter enforcement. Now a top level player who tackles someone above the shoulder, or tackles without attempting to hold on (so no clothes-linse or body checks) will…

"The size of the people. In both sports their has been an increase in the mass of the players. However US football players seems disproportionately massive. In Rugby their are not rolling substitutions, so you have to carry that mass around for 80 minutes, and therefore a compromise is necessary, perhaps gridiron could restrict the number of subs, or the squad size so the bruisers actually had to run." You are correc…

> And they can run. It is not uncommon in 2017 to see 300+ pound linemen that can run quite fast. Michael Oher, the subject of the Michael Lewis book _The Blind Side_[2] is 6'4", has an actual weight of 320+ pounds, and is described to move very quickly on the basketball court.

I guess the obvious comeback is that they don't also have to pace themselves for 80 minutes. There are some very fast men in Rugby but they have to trade on stamina, and strength too as everyone has to defend.

> the size of normal rugby players. And are faster

There is a huge variation in size and builds in Rugby too. 200lbs is about the minimum now (was less) for backs. 266lbs is probably the max now. Height wise 5'7" to 6'8" is the normal range. George North[0] for instance is 238lbs 6ft 4 and runs the hundred metres in around 11 seconds with his compromise physique. They tend to aim for a very fast 40m time as it is all about breaking the defensive line in Rugby. Other smaller players clock in mid 10's for 100m, again the physique is too compromised to run at full olympic pace. They are expected to tackle the big guys for a full 80 minutes. There have been genuine sprinters in Rugby, I think of Carlin Isles in particular who was a novelty in the cut down game of Rugby 7's (7 rather than 15 players, shorter in duration and designed to encourage a running game). He didn't make any headway in the full game however for the reasons above.

> And are faster > It is not uncommon in 2017 to see 300+ pound linemen that can run quite fast

Apart from my comments about the compromise in physique required to run and tackle for 80 minutes, this just makes me believe more an more that their performances are otherwordly or at least enhanced.

> launch themselves into opponents at full speed

Which if they were not both wearing padding would result in two broken players. If you watch how a Rugby player tackles one of the fast guys, it is a much more dynamic move without sudden deceleration. You have to deflect and unbalance, not body check. It still looks cool, you shouldn't be concerned that it will hurt the spectacle of the NFL.

[0]https://genuinepace.com/category/rugby-union-2/ [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gA5bwqVN5LM

Re: Concussion doctor says he found CTE in living NFL player

#178

Post by outsideoflife »

unexpected wrote: post #163
outsideoflife wrote: post #89

For my American cousins I thought I would mention a little more about Rugby Union. Concussion is less of a problem in Rugby than in American football, and this is not an accident. Rugby is addressing this in several ways. 1) Years of rule changes, and stricter enforcement. Now a top level player who tackles someone above the shoulder, or tackles without attempting to hold on (so no clothes-linse or body checks) will…

CTE is not about concussions. CTE is about repeated, sub-concussive hits ( https://concussionfoundation.org/CTE-resources/subconcussive... ) So, I don't think it's fair to say that you're not "killing the brains of your young men". Based on the best research available, Rugby players, who may be at less risk for concussions due to the safety protocols you have outlined, are still at a high risk for CTE.

> are still at a high risk for CTE.

This is a very good point. I am concerned as the Rugby players have become bigger and faster (which I put down to not so much sports science as sports chemistry) in the last 10 years and the impacts are harder. Rugby is a contact sport and is dangerous for your brain.

My argument has developed during the day due to some excellent responses. What I want to say now, is there are some lessons American Football can take from Rugby to make a dangerous game safer without risking the spectacle. Making it totally safe is going to be much harder

Re: Concussion doctor says he found CTE in living NFL player

#179

Post by BearGoesChirp »

brightball wrote: post #156
mobilefriendly wrote: post #68

There's a lot of hate towards the NFL but the NCAA is an even worse actor on CTE. 70,000 college players every year, and they aren't paid professionals like the NFL. But NCAA programs make billions of dollars off of the players (and their coaches millions). Destroying brains for profit, in the context of the education system, is truly evil.

NCAA programs do not make billions of dollars. All NCAA programs combined might have that much total revenue. http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances/ Clemson, where I went to school and the current defending champs had a budget of $104,000,000. Of that, they spent $103,000,000. If you'd be so kind as to identify the shareholder who's rolling in that $1 million profit I'd appreciate it. When I was in school around 2…

>Clemson, where I went to school and the current defending champs had a budget of $104,000,000. Of that, they spent $103,000,000. If you'd be so kind as to identify the shareholder who's rolling in that $1 million profit I'd appreciate it.

How does one account for the potential of Hollywood accounting when looking as just a few top numbers? If you look at the cost verses income of movies using the same standards, most box office hits were financial disasters, no?

Re: Concussion doctor says he found CTE in living NFL player

#180

Post by outsideoflife »

horungefitta wrote: post #143
kasey_junk wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the problems with CTE is we still aren’t positive what is causing it. There is at least some evidence that low level repetitive hits to the head are as bad or worse than concussions in this regard. If that is true Rugby is going to have its day of reckoning in CTE (as is soccer). Concussions are bad in any case, so it’s great that we are trying to prevent them, but I’d be very careful assuming any contact spor…

yes, and rule changes to the game wont adress the repetitive collisions during off season practice where former pro fotball player Brendan Schaub claims most of the damage is done.

This is an excellent point

However there are a couple of things to say

1) If the game rules changed you would stop training for hits you were not expecting to take and concentrate on other factors.

2) I wonder how much of this training is necessary, vs hitting a heavy bag for instance. Perhaps it is just bad practice (no pun intended)

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