A Message to Our Customers about iPhone Batteries and Performance • Hacker News Board

Re: A Message to Our Customers about iPhone Batteries and Performance

#191

Post by emn13 » Thu, Dec 28, 2017, 10:40 PM UTC

MBCook wrote: post #133

Joeri wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

John sort of skated by the point that these phones were designed to have this problem. Spontaneous shutdowns with aging batteries are not a standard feature of all smartphones. Apple made a trade-off in the phone design that caused this hardware problem and then used software to try to workaround it but didn’t tell people that this would slow down their phones. My wife has an iphone 6 with this problem and was consid…

Apple is right that this is a fundamental battery issue. Other phones must have SOME way of dealing with it. Does anyone know how Samsung phones (for example) deal with low battery voltage issues? Do they simply adjust the battery meter so that it reports zero percent by the time you might start having these issues? Does it slow the phone down The way Apple did? Does it issue some sort of warning that your battery is…

If by "fundamental battery issue" you mean that all phones have this issue or some comparably severe tradeoff, then no, this is not a fundamental issue. Batteries don't all degrade at the same rate, and even given a specific battery tech, the way it's implemented in the device can have a dramatic impact on the longevity. Temperature, rate of charging, the degree (i.e. voltage) up to which it is charged, the degree (i.e. voltage) at which it is considered empty are all factors that are primarily in the device manufacturers hands.

Even a few percent overprovisioning can extend life expectency by a lot; and aggressive temperature-related charging (and discharging) throttling can trade peak (benchmark) performance and predictable charging speeds for longevity. I bet apple could make a phone with at least double the battery longevity with 1% price, mass, and size increases, and perf and battery life decreases -- if they wanted to. Of course, those factors are easily quantifiable, and battery longevity less so...

So sure: battery degradation is a fundamental issue in the sense that all batteries degrade - but how they do and what tradeoffs the device makes to minimize that are largely up to the manufacturer, and unfortunately also poorly documented, poorly benchmarkable, and I'm not sure how clearly a warranty would apply - so yeah, the it's a factor that manufacturers are bound to skimp on.

(I wouldn't particularly expect apple to be any worse than the rest of the pack, though).

Re: A Message to Our Customers about iPhone Batteries and Performance

#192

Post by ihuman » Thu, Dec 28, 2017, 10:40 PM UTC

jhack wrote: post #172

jmull wrote: post #115

> Apple is reducing the price of an out-of-warranty iPhone battery replacement by $50 — from $79 to $29... > Early in 2018, we will issue an iOS software update with new features that give users more visibility into the health of their iPhone’s battery, so they can see for themselves if its condition is affecting performance. There we go. It took too much trouble and too long for it to happen, but Apple is stepping u…

> It took too much trouble and too long for it to happen, but Apple is stepping up and doing the right thing. The right thing would have been for Apple to either stop this behaviour or give users the option (retain performance or retain battery life). They're doing neither.

I don't think Apple would ever introduce a switch that could allow the phone to randomly power down.

Re: A Message to Our Customers about iPhone Batteries and Performance

#193

Post by PacketPaul » Thu, Dec 28, 2017, 10:40 PM UTC

askafriend wrote: post #182

jhack wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It took too much trouble and too long for it to happen, but Apple is stepping up and doing the right thing. The right thing would have been for Apple to either stop this behaviour or give users the option (retain performance or retain battery life). They're doing neither.

I disagree. I think they're doing the right thing here. Most users shouldn't need to manage their battery performance actively at all. What's next? Users should manage their own RAM usage? Absolutely not. They're giving away batteries for free, and giving users more visibility into the health of their battery in an upcoming update. That's the right thing.

The batteries are not free. How about a user replaceable battery design?

Re: A Message to Our Customers about iPhone Batteries and Performance

#194

Post by akvadrako » Thu, Dec 28, 2017, 10:40 PM UTC

baddox wrote: post #83

ClassyJacket wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a battery expert, but it needs to be pointed out that other smartphone manufacturers do not have this problem. It was Apple specific - it's not as if every device with a lithium battery shuts off at 40%. So it still feels like they're doing it to mitigate a fault with the device, and should've been more transparent about that in the first place.

Is there any evidence that, all else being equal, Apple’s batteries degrade faster or degraded iPhones shut off during peak usage more than other smartphones?

Of course there is no evidence of that - because then people would have a legitimate (though different) complaint.

Re: A Message to Our Customers about iPhone Batteries and Performance

#195

Post by djsumdog » Thu, Dec 28, 2017, 10:41 PM UTC

jmull wrote: post #115

> Apple is reducing the price of an out-of-warranty iPhone battery replacement by $50 — from $79 to $29... > Early in 2018, we will issue an iOS software update with new features that give users more visibility into the health of their iPhone’s battery, so they can see for themselves if its condition is affecting performance. There we go. It took too much trouble and too long for it to happen, but Apple is stepping u…

This isn't the first time this has happened to Apple. They use to not sell replacement batteries for the original iPods, and when people called in to complain, they were often told to buy an entire new iPod. This was settled in a lawsuit:

http://www.ilounge.com/index.php/articles/comments/apples-ip...

Another important note is this battery replacement cost only cover the iPhone6 and up. That's only the 2015 release. That's still lubricious. If we had devices as powerful as today's cellphones that cost $500+ in the early-90s, losing support after 2~3 years would be lubricious.

In 2012 I remember seeing someone with the first generation iPhone EDGE (pre-3G). That's right; the thing was like 6? 7 years old? He really only used it on Wi-Fi. EDGE data was painful, but it was still his primary/only phone for another year.

The throwaway economy saddens me, and this move doesn't really do enough to prevent the continuing pileup of e-waste being shipped on boats to China and Africa.

Re: A Message to Our Customers about iPhone Batteries and Performance

#196

Post by wodenokoto » Thu, Dec 28, 2017, 10:41 PM UTC

jhack wrote: post #172

jmull wrote: post #115

> Apple is reducing the price of an out-of-warranty iPhone battery replacement by $50 — from $79 to $29... > Early in 2018, we will issue an iOS software update with new features that give users more visibility into the health of their iPhone’s battery, so they can see for themselves if its condition is affecting performance. There we go. It took too much trouble and too long for it to happen, but Apple is stepping u…

> It took too much trouble and too long for it to happen, but Apple is stepping up and doing the right thing. The right thing would have been for Apple to either stop this behaviour or give users the option (retain performance or retain battery life). They're doing neither.

So the right thing is to have phones crash as the battery age?

This is not a question about battery life in terms of how many hours the phone can run. This is a question about the phones ability to draw high amounts of power for short intervals.

Re: A Message to Our Customers about iPhone Batteries and Performance

#197

Post by sjrd » Thu, Dec 28, 2017, 10:41 PM UTC

jhack wrote: post #172

jmull wrote: post #115

> Apple is reducing the price of an out-of-warranty iPhone battery replacement by $50 — from $79 to $29... > Early in 2018, we will issue an iOS software update with new features that give users more visibility into the health of their iPhone’s battery, so they can see for themselves if its condition is affecting performance. There we go. It took too much trouble and too long for it to happen, but Apple is stepping u…

> It took too much trouble and too long for it to happen, but Apple is stepping up and doing the right thing. The right thing would have been for Apple to either stop this behaviour or give users the option (retain performance or retain battery life). They're doing neither.

Ah, so you prefer your phone just shutting down unexpectedly when you open your picture-taking app, update the public transportation app to buy a ticket because they updated the server, or exit the metro into the freezing cold of winter? Right.

Not an Apple customer (never was, probably never will), I use a Samsung Android, and I wish my phone were doing that performance limitation thing, because I do feel the issues caused by unexpected shutdowns on a daily basis. I constantly carry an extra battery to be able to reboot my phone when that happens.

Re: A Message to Our Customers about iPhone Batteries and Performance

#198

Post by singhrac » Thu, Dec 28, 2017, 10:41 PM UTC

MBCook wrote: post #167

chowyuncat wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the consumer doesn't have enough information in this case. They are more than likely going to buy a new phone rather than a new battery.

Under the old software, where the phone would randomly turn off on you, what do you think they would’ve done? Probably the same thing. Buy a new phone.

I think the argument is that one would notice that the battery drains very quickly, and starts shutting off at a certain percent. Then they could know the battery is a problem, and pay $79 to get that replaced, instead of upgrading.

Re: A Message to Our Customers about iPhone Batteries and Performance

#199

Post by blensor » Thu, Dec 28, 2017, 10:41 PM UTC

askafriend wrote: post #182

jhack wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It took too much trouble and too long for it to happen, but Apple is stepping up and doing the right thing. The right thing would have been for Apple to either stop this behaviour or give users the option (retain performance or retain battery life). They're doing neither.

I disagree. I think they're doing the right thing here. Most users shouldn't need to manage their battery performance actively at all. What's next? Users should manage their own RAM usage? Absolutely not. They're giving away batteries for free, and giving users more visibility into the health of their battery in an upcoming update. That's the right thing.

So you think a Popup

"Hey you're battery is going bad. Do you want to [keep the performance] or [save the battery life]?"

Would be too much??

Re: A Message to Our Customers about iPhone Batteries and Performance

#200

Post by MBCook » Thu, Dec 28, 2017, 10:42 PM UTC

baddox wrote: post #49

nixgeek wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rock and a hard place for Apple, after 600 cycles or 2 years 'average usage' (based on reports I've seen in the past) the battery might only have 50-60% of the design capacity, so their choice is between reducing battery consumption (via throttling) or having users whose phones are totally drained in significantly less than an 'average working day'.

Old batteries draining to zero quickly isn’t even the primary problem. The primary problem is phone instantly shutting off during a peak in CPU usage because the battery voltage drops below a usagable threshold. This can happen with old batteries long before the battery life meter goes down to zero.

I remember experiencing it with my six. I’d be using my phone and then the phone would just randomly shut down. I might have noticed the battery indicator saying five percent or something like that right before it died (even though that wasn’t true).

You’d restart the phone and after a second trip to the battery indicator would show the correct level (let’s say 60 to 80 percent).