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Consciousness: Where Are Words?

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Re: Consciousness: Where Are Words?

#21

Post by StavrosK »

chesimov wrote: post #18
pygy_ wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That reasoning completely falls on its face though. AFAIK, Stroke patients whose language areas have been destroyed are still able to perform complex tasks. You can think visually and procedurally (imagining actions) without putting things into words. IIRC Broca's area (which is responsible for grammar) may be related to the temporal planning of non-verbal actions though, so the above may be limited to Wernike's apha…

What do they mean by putting things into words? When thinking, it seems that the assumption is that we are silently putting our thoughts into words? This is by experience not the case anyway, right?

It depends. Some people (most people?) think their thoughts in words, and find it hard to believe that other people don't. Other people (me, maybe you?) just think "thoughts". Wordlessly, imagelessly. The article supports this, but the GP (it seems to me) finds it worthwhile to point out that people can still think without words, which indicates to me that he thinks with words.

I have had a very hard time explaining to people that I just think thoughts, like flashes of... thinking, without words or actions or images. It's like when speaking or typing, you already know what you're going to say or type or write before you put it into words, but some people have trouble relating to that.

Re: Consciousness: Where Are Words?

#22

Post by StavrosK »

kleer001 wrote: post #17
empath75 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it’s obvious that brains can operate without thoughts because animals and insects do it.

What makes you think other living beings besides humans don't have thoughts? IMHO we're just a slightly souped up version of everything else, exist along a continuity, and are not 'special' except in contrived and technical ways.

What makes you think all humans have "thoughts" (I assume you mean "word thoughts")? I, for example, don't think in words or images, I just... think.

Re: Consciousness: Where Are Words?

#23

Post by catawbasam »

kleer001 wrote: post #17
empath75 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it’s obvious that brains can operate without thoughts because animals and insects do it.

What makes you think other living beings besides humans don't have thoughts? IMHO we're just a slightly souped up version of everything else, exist along a continuity, and are not 'special' except in contrived and technical ways.

'slightly' seems a bit understated to me. There is no other species whose members are anywhere close to sitting around typing messages to each other across hundreds or thousand of miles.

We are steering our evolution as a species outside of biology, in large part, via social and cultural institutions. What other species does that?

Re: Consciousness: Where Are Words?

#24

Post by StavrosK »

catawbasam wrote: post #23
kleer001 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think other living beings besides humans don't have thoughts? IMHO we're just a slightly souped up version of everything else, exist along a continuity, and are not 'special' except in contrived and technical ways.

'slightly' seems a bit understated to me. There is no other species whose members are anywhere close to sitting around typing messages to each other across hundreds or thousand of miles. We are steering our evolution as a species outside of biology, in large part, via social and cultural institutions. What other species does that?

> What other species does that?

None. Sometimes I wonder if they know something we don't.

Re: Consciousness: Where Are Words?

#25

Post by ibigb »

For a better understanding of consciousness, thinking, knowledge, I would refer you to a short thesis correcting some of the errors of ideas about same: http://wn.rsarchive.org/Books/GA003/English/GC1981/GA003_c03...

"ALL PROPOUNDERS of theories of knowledge since Kant have been influenced to a greater or lesser degree by the mistaken way he formulated the problem of knowledge. As a result of his “a priorism” he advanced the view that all objects given to us are our representations..."

Re: Consciousness: Where Are Words?

#26

Post by vinceguidry »

StavrosK wrote: post #21
chesimov wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do they mean by putting things into words? When thinking, it seems that the assumption is that we are silently putting our thoughts into words? This is by experience not the case anyway, right?

It depends. Some people (most people?) think their thoughts in words, and find it hard to believe that other people don't. Other people (me, maybe you?) just think "thoughts". Wordlessly, imagelessly. The article supports this, but the GP (it seems to me) finds it worthwhile to point out that people can still think without words, which indicates to me that he thinks with words. I have had a very hard time explaining…

I generally use words only when I need to communicate. I have different forms that I think with depending on what I'm doing. For example, when I'm coding, I think in terms of methods, objects, and data. The process of selecting words to speak or type is very much like finding the right code pattern.

Re: Consciousness: Where Are Words?

#27

Post by guuz »

EGreg wrote: post #19
jjaredsimpson wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consciousness is: what it is like to experience something. Note this is different from self consciousness which is: what is it like to be something which experiences and know you are that thing. Humans are certainly self conscious. Crabs are certainly conscious. Crystals certainly exist. Where the boundaries are is an interesting question, but the categories certainly exist even if I can't draw a clean boundary aroun…

Let's translate your sentences to illustrate what I mean. What it is like ? So you are comparing one entity experiencing something to another. Experiencing is a process that takes place inside the entity and among its component parts. Know you are that thing - every thing is itself, if it has well defined boundaries. Knowing something is just having access to that information and good reasons to believe it to be corr…

> Crabs are self conscious too because they act with a purpose of self preservation, which requires knowledge of what is them and what is not them.

It's a bit more complicated. Self consciousness is the ability to contemplate mental states, some philosophers say. Crabs do not contemplate their own mental states, they simply act and feel.

Re: Consciousness: Where Are Words?

#28

Post by chesimov »

StavrosK wrote: post #21
chesimov wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do they mean by putting things into words? When thinking, it seems that the assumption is that we are silently putting our thoughts into words? This is by experience not the case anyway, right?

It depends. Some people (most people?) think their thoughts in words, and find it hard to believe that other people don't. Other people (me, maybe you?) just think "thoughts". Wordlessly, imagelessly. The article supports this, but the GP (it seems to me) finds it worthwhile to point out that people can still think without words, which indicates to me that he thinks with words. I have had a very hard time explaining…

Thanks for your explanation, I did not know that this was the case. I had until now assumed that words are a kind of medium for conveying the underlying thoughts which are abstract and exist separately. Observations like this make me wonder if actually there might be quite substantial differences from person to person when it comes to thinking and perception.

Re: Consciousness: Where Are Words?

#29

Post by pygy_ »

StavrosK wrote: post #21
chesimov wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do they mean by putting things into words? When thinking, it seems that the assumption is that we are silently putting our thoughts into words? This is by experience not the case anyway, right?

It depends. Some people (most people?) think their thoughts in words, and find it hard to believe that other people don't. Other people (me, maybe you?) just think "thoughts". Wordlessly, imagelessly. The article supports this, but the GP (it seems to me) finds it worthwhile to point out that people can still think without words, which indicates to me that he thinks with words. I have had a very hard time explaining…

> I have had a very hard time explaining to people that I just think thoughts, like flashes of... thinking, without words or actions or images. It's like when speaking or typing, you already know what you're going to say or type or write before you put it into words, but some people have trouble relating to that.

I'm in the same boat, actually. While I can't read without vocalizing mentally, I have speechless thoughts especially when it comes to math/logic stuff, and I sometimes find it painful to have to wait for my mouth to serialize what I have in mind.

Re: Consciousness: Where Are Words?

#30

Post by mannykannot »

EGreg wrote: post #19
jjaredsimpson wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consciousness is: what it is like to experience something. Note this is different from self consciousness which is: what is it like to be something which experiences and know you are that thing. Humans are certainly self conscious. Crabs are certainly conscious. Crystals certainly exist. Where the boundaries are is an interesting question, but the categories certainly exist even if I can't draw a clean boundary aroun…

Let's translate your sentences to illustrate what I mean. What it is like ? So you are comparing one entity experiencing something to another. Experiencing is a process that takes place inside the entity and among its component parts. Know you are that thing - every thing is itself, if it has well defined boundaries. Knowing something is just having access to that information and good reasons to believe it to be corr…

> Crabs are self conscious too because they act with a purpose of self preservation, which requires knowledge of what is them and what is not them.

I guess my office building is self conscious then, as it has a sprinkler system.

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