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India’s IT industry laid off more than 56k employees this year

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Re: India’s IT industry laid off more than 56k employees this year

#361

Post by user5994461 »

eru wrote: post #173
user5994461 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bullshit. Tech companies are not competing for worldwide talents. The companies you quote have at most 3 offices in Europe: London, Zurich, Dublin. The first thing a recruiter will tell you is to abandon your life and your family.

> The first thing a recruiter will tell you is to abandon your life and your family. Do you mean that as in "move" or as in "work long hours"? Google has at least offices in Germany, too.

I meant move.

Google has offices in almost every countries but they are administrative offices with almost no employees. If you're a tech worker, you can only be in one of the very few tech locations.

Re: India’s IT industry laid off more than 56k employees this year

#362

Post by j45 »

walshemj wrote: post #349
j45 wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If insulted doesn't begin to explain it, entitled might. I think the tests are annoying too. Still is ultimately called work for a reason, we show up to get things done that are challenging, sometimes unpleasant and often necessary. As a developer who hires other developers, I don't place the value in testing on what a developer can code, but how quickly they can learn and how well they can solve problems and communi…

Do you mean the employer is entitled or the employee? I have seen low skilled employers (supermarkets) complaining about university grads. When someone should point out that they are a "jumped up grocer" and they don't get to employ firsts from Oxbridge And turn it the other way around what if a potential employee insisted on employers doing a test. Imaginin interviewing at uber and asking "So MR Manger" what's the d…

The thread is about a developer's issues with being tested during interviews, so I would say the potential employee is entitled if balking about being asked about their abilities to the extent that the employer is the one signing the cheque, and a basis for the employer being able to add value in exchange for salary is still being established.

Knowing a little more than non-technical employers doesn't place an inexperienced developer in a position of expertise, only knowing a little more than the guy testing them.

If you are referring to non technical folks not being skilled at hiring for technical positions, I agree to the point that this is a common challenge where non tech people are put in charge of digital transformation, among other things.

Even highly competent and technical teams can struggle with testing incoming hires we.

An interesting idea is contemplating if tech people will be able to learn and transform business skills easier than non techs business folks might be able to learn tech. If this was attractive to tech folks, the hiring tests would include more business problem oriented questions than fizzing and buzzing. It's still a little surprising how few developers can do this in any country, so it might remain an inconvenient test and filter for a while yet.

Re: India’s IT industry laid off more than 56k employees this year

#363

Post by user5994461 »

sontek wrote: post #249
nine_k wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A reasonable relocation package includes moving the family. I've seen a few firsthand.

What those packages fail to realize is that many of us still value more than just our wife and kids. Relocating means leaving uncles aunts, cousins, mom, dad, grandma, etc. And any friends you have. I've had to explain to many recruiters that leaving all my friends and family and my community as a whole is just not an option.

And also leaving your language, your currency, your bank, your culture, the entertainment you know (movies, culture, songs), the shops and brands you are used to...

Changing country is changing everything.

Re: India’s IT industry laid off more than 56k employees this year

#364

Post by j45 »

FilterSweep wrote: post #359
j45 wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your position seems to be based in an assumption that the issue is competitiveness alone. Another factor is Indian companies like wipro and reliance are buying operations outright in North America. The ship and kidnapping reference to slavery is in poor taste, It might be easier to get your point across and help people be more open to exploring your perspective if you weren't so easy and loose with colloquialisms tha…

I'll add that the threat of H1Bs have been used as a threatening tool to US employees by US companies.[0] Can't work longer hours for less pay? Reasonably expect your wages to increase with each year? Fine! We'll hire someone from outside. And generally, when someone takes a criminally low level of pay for their high skill labor, all workers, domestic and international, suffer. [0] This is the other side of the coin,…

I hope such hardball tactics will set up those companies to fail at their digital transformation they are undertaking anyways.

All labor, skilled or not, local or not, deserve basic dignity and respect.

The reality sadly is some groups have to work much harder for much less and it is leveraged against not only them, but other groups too.

Seeing freelancer rates worldwide slowly creep up may be a significant of things to come. The cheaper labor is getting g more specialized and expensive.

Re: India’s IT industry laid off more than 56k employees this year

#365

Post by saguro »

j45 wrote: post #362
walshemj wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you mean the employer is entitled or the employee? I have seen low skilled employers (supermarkets) complaining about university grads. When someone should point out that they are a "jumped up grocer" and they don't get to employ firsts from Oxbridge And turn it the other way around what if a potential employee insisted on employers doing a test. Imaginin interviewing at uber and asking "So MR Manger" what's the d…

The thread is about a developer's issues with being tested during interviews, so I would say the potential employee is entitled if balking about being asked about their abilities to the extent that the employer is the one signing the cheque, and a basis for the employer being able to add value in exchange for salary is still being established. Knowing a little more than non-technical employers doesn't place an inexpe…

> If this was attractive to tech folks, the hiring tests would include more business problem oriented questions than fizzing and buzzing

And yet business people don't get any tests. No one else on the entire planet gets tests for almost every role opportunity they want to explore. So why do developers have to?

Actually, I can answer that. The answer is because the overwhelming majority of a modern company's productivity is up to the performance of the developers. The business guys get away with under-performing because their underprformance is not a significant factor on the bottom line.

The commonplace testing of developers has nothing to do with ratios of good to bad developers, or the relative ease of assessing developer skill compared to other professions. It has everything to do with the fact that developers drive the lions share of modern business value so they've been singled out for shitty treatment with testing and kaggle competitions and similar garbage. I really hope to see a software engineering union rise in the next few years which cracks down on this and empowers developers to negotiate relative to their actual value in modern business.

People like you aren't needed in the world of high tech. Your role is redundant.

Re: India’s IT industry laid off more than 56k employees this year

#366

Post by user5994461 »

qaq wrote: post #133
user5994461 wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Magento is a wordpress plugin, or similar enough. Hardly a large company. Samsung is a big hardware company, I'm not sure what they would have in software job but why not. GitLab is a fully remote company, they don't recruit anywhere specifically. Their full disclosure on their (low) salaries and losing customer data is certainly driving away the senior folks I know. Game companies are the shithole of the industry, t…

I am not sure I follow :) the logic. This is a random list of product companies that I remember it's a small fraction of companies with large dev. offices in Ukraine. GitLab was a Ukrainian startup and has a large number of developers in Ukraine. Samsung had about 700 developers as far I remember. The compensation trends have very low correlation to how things are in US. The largest local $ making companies are mainl…

I mean that good developers will migrate toward local companies that have good work conditions, good money, good projects, and good co workers.

The companies you quote are not better than a middle grade outsourcing company in these regards, so they're not stealing their talents. If they are the best companies you could think of, that explains why you can find decent developers in the local outsourcing firms.

Re: India’s IT industry laid off more than 56k employees this year

#367

Post by walshemj »

saguro wrote: post #365
j45 wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thread is about a developer's issues with being tested during interviews, so I would say the potential employee is entitled if balking about being asked about their abilities to the extent that the employer is the one signing the cheque, and a basis for the employer being able to add value in exchange for salary is still being established. Knowing a little more than non-technical employers doesn't place an inexpe…

> If this was attractive to tech folks, the hiring tests would include more business problem oriented questions than fizzing and buzzing And yet business people don't get any tests. No one else on the entire planet gets tests for almost every role opportunity they want to explore. So why do developers have to? Actually, I can answer that. The answer is because the overwhelming majority of a modern company's productiv…

I could say the same for HR at BT we had one HR person come to present to our team meting and they did not know that the developers in BT are M&P Grades and not CWU blue collar grades.

Though I would agree that asking we have a business problem how would you solve or improve on what we do now is a much better q to ask.

Re: India’s IT industry laid off more than 56k employees this year

#368

Post by saguro »

glogla wrote: post #314
saguro wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/4k994j/if_... This is how good talent views any kind of tests. I can't blame them. There is no other professional industry in the world, where candidates with 6+ years of professional success are asked to sit a god damned test every time they apply for a job. Insulting doesn't even begin to describe the problem with this concept. Don't get me wrong, I understand where…

> There is no other professional industry in the world, where candidates with 6+ years of professional success are asked to sit a god damned test every time they apply for a job. But is it because it is hard to fake knowledge in other industries or is it because it is easy to find out programmer is faking? If there's so many programmers who can't do fizbuz, are there as many managers, doctors, lawyers, etc who can't…

> there's so many programmers who can't do fizbuz, are there as many managers, doctors, lawyers, etc who can't do basic stuff despite perfect CV?

Yeah, there are. Plenty of garbage doctors and lawyers out there who are allowed to continue practicing.

Here's why testing for developers exists:

1: They are incredibly important to business revenue. In a modern business, if a manager underperforms, nothing much happens. If your development team underperforms, you lose millions. So you try to get the best development team you can.

2: There's no meaningful standardized testing. A Lawyer passes the bar exam, a doctor has to pass board certification, while any idiot from backwater India can call themselves a software engineer. But its important to note that neither the bar exam nor board certification tell you anything about how good that person is in their field, they just say they meet the bare minimum requirements. In the case of IT, the bare minimum requirements happen to be much lower than what most employers hope to attract, so they resort to doing testing themselves. It's not a terrible approach, but it does discourage top talent from applying.

3: Skill disparity. There aren't many '10x' lawyers or doctors or managers out there, but there are plenty of such developers. This is partially related to my 2nd point but mostly just a consequence of software engineering being a creative task rather than a learned flowchart like law and medicine. As an employer, you want to come up with some signal to find the high performers.

Re: India’s IT industry laid off more than 56k employees this year

#369

Post by [deleted] »

jackmott wrote: post #199
grad_ml wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is plain BS. I don't recall any CS department in India (and I know 100's) teaching, MS-word, Logo, Basic, Powerpoint, excel etc. However, I did TA'ed at Rice University, TX, Excel course for freshman.

they don't teach excel in the comp sci department at Rice.

[deleted]
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