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FreeBSD – a lesson in poor defaults

vez.mrsk.me

61–70 of 72 posts

Re: FreeBSD – a lesson in poor defaults

#61
post #46
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any citations about Switch using FreeBSD by chance?

http://www.osnews.com/story/29698/Nintendo_Switch_runs_FreeB...

That line of citations just ends in a tweet quoting a copyright notice from the FreeBSD kernel.

That doesn't mean the Switch runs FreeBSD, just that Nintendo used some code from the kernel, which could be as small as adapting a single driver to their in-house OS.

Re: FreeBSD – a lesson in poor defaults

#62
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously Windows should be free, with all the huge companies that use that. The logic makes no sense.

I'll try to explain my reasoning, then. If Netflix and other very profitable companies are, as I'm told, contributing in both code and money to FreeBSD, and if I'm also being asked to donate, then the contributions from said corporations are obviously not enough to cover the costs of FreeBSD development. Since I pay for Netflix, why should I double-pay by donating to FreeBSD? Seems to me that Netflix should be diggin…

You don't pay Netflix to use FreeBSD, you pay them for a streaming video service that would be indistinguishable to you if they used Linux.

I'd expect Netflix to pay enough for FreeBSD to fund things they're interested in for running their own infrastructure. This is how free software development works, if you have an itch you either scratch it yourself or pay someone to scratch it.

You wouldn't want a FreeBSD that would be entirely funded by Netflix either, because nobody would be working on anything Netflix itself didn't need, such a system would quickly end up being useless to you.

Re: FreeBSD – a lesson in poor defaults

#63
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FreeBSD is a tune-it-yourself OS. You think your swap should be encrypted? Fine, append ".eli" to the name of your swap GEOM (partition, slice, whatever) in fstab, and you're done. Some may not require this at all, because FreeBSD may be used in a lot of different situations. Your needs - your choice.

The submission in question is about defaults, not about choice.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16012670

Re: FreeBSD – a lesson in poor defaults

#64
post #57
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The funny part is that FreeBSD has had years to even implement anything as simple as ASLR but it didn't and instead starting to reject other peoples code. What HardenedBSD did is basically following the PaX model which has been documented for a long time[1]. It seems like FreeBSD is just lacking any developers willing to deal with these security features or let alone upstream it because its usually a pain in the ass…

The funny part is that even amongst top security researchers there doesn't seem to be an agreement over the fact if ASLR is worth anything, as it was proved to be breakable in no time. And it seems like grsecurity code suffers the same problems as the code from HardenedBSD, that is the quality matching the respective project's standards.

Who are these top security researchers? ASLR on its own is useless but security is about layers there isn't one mitigation to rule em all. But ASLR combined with other features work very well, the funny part about FreeBSD that you can just apply 90s blog post about smashing the stack and you can exploit with it.

grsecurity code is clean and uses some neat tricks with the C language, most features have been there for at least a decade and recently things like RAP have come along but its all pretty clean. The problem with upstreaming is that you will have people that think the code is shit or doesn't work properly or all kinds of other stuff and that takes a lot of time that could be spent somewhere else. About the quality matching the respective project's standards is bullshit because many developers aren't security engineers or have never dealt with exploit mitigation's and instantly think/say the code is shit, biggest reason why Linux will never get actual important features from grsecurity because it takes lots of time and developers that actually understand what they are doing. FreeBSD just doesn't have those developers and neither has Linux, now you know why out of tree patches just work for this kind of stuff. Microsoft seems to take the upper hand in exploit mitigation's at the moment.

Re: FreeBSD – a lesson in poor defaults

#65
post #5

I wonder how this compares to other unix systems, such as OpenBSD or various Linux Distros.

Long-time OpenBSD user here. OpenBSD has sane, secure defaults with nothing enabled in a fresh install. This is a desired default, as everyone uses OSes for different reasons. OpenBSD makes a phenomenal firewall, a pretty good Web server, and a super nice, secure file server. OpenBSD shines because of the ongoing code audit, the minimalism, and the ability to easily make it into whatever you want. I don't care for an…

>OpenBSD makes a phenomenal firewall

How about a router? I've been considering getting some single-board computer (probably an APU2[1]) and turning it into a router, possibly using OpenBSD + pf. Or maybe just install Pfsense. Or maybe use Linux and...iptables? (Not sure how that stack would look exactly)

1. https://www.pcengines.ch/apu2.htm

Re: FreeBSD – a lesson in poor defaults

#66
post #60
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes perfect sense if you don't personally own or use Windows. I don't pay Microsoft again to play TitanFall just because their servers are hosted on Azure. I understand we all probably use tools everyday that can be attributed to these projects and I don't mean to imply that you shouldn't give them money. Just that the Netflix/WhatsApp comments seem a little disingenuous. That shouldn't be in the "reasons you ne…

You might one day want to run a startup or a project and then you could just do it on FreeBSD in any way you like, given the permissive license and this is exactly the reason why you need BSD, not only because Netflix or WhatsApp uses them to serve you the service.

I should donate to every project on github in case I need to use one somewhere in the future!

Re: FreeBSD – a lesson in poor defaults

#67
post #66
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might one day want to run a startup or a project and then you could just do it on FreeBSD in any way you like, given the permissive license and this is exactly the reason why you need BSD, not only because Netflix or WhatsApp uses them to serve you the service.

I should donate to every project on github in case I need to use one somewhere in the future!

I can guarantee you'll need to use an operating system, they're rather essential. Ensuring the basic building blocks are available for future use is beneficial, and showing what has previously been built with them shows why.

Re: FreeBSD – a lesson in poor defaults

#68
post #42
post #31

While you're here, have you donated[0][1] yet? :) You may or may not be aware, but FreeBSD runs your movies on Netflix, your games on PlayStation and Nitendo Switch, your files on FreeNAS and ZFS, your friends on WhatsApp and OpenBSD runs everything else on OpenSSH. ;) So, you may or may not know that, but you need FreeBSD and OpenBSD and they also need you! Every cent counts and so does every contributor, that helps…

Any citations about Switch using FreeBSD by chance?

It's not FreeBSD[1]. This is doubled up by the fact that the networking system module is called "bsd"[2].

[1] https://reswitched.tech/software/oss

[2] http://switchbrew.org/index.php?title=Sockets_services

Re: FreeBSD – a lesson in poor defaults

#69
post #50
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> encrypted SWAP When I was setting up dm-crypt for my Linux dev box at work I opted for using an encrypted swap as it really made sense: why keep on-disk stuff encrypted if swapped memory is in plain sight. It turned out to be a somewhat bad decision, because when the system did run out of memory (thank you, Firefox and Skype) and began swapping, the whole box just freezes as the kernel was too busy encrypting more…

In my experience, swap usually does not actually work out helpfully. The system slows down so much it's unusable, and you wish the OOM killer killed something so you can recover some processes/state, but it takes way too long to do so, many minutes while the system is effectively frozen and you are helpless. (Some people think the OOM killer kicks in too soon. They're crazy ;) I also ran into this when setting memory…

Swap wins when you have different large processes open that you aren't actually using simultaneously. On my laptop with 2GB of RAM, it's why I don't have to close my browser before opening something else.

Re: FreeBSD – a lesson in poor defaults

#70
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I should donate to every project on github in case I need to use one somewhere in the future!

I can guarantee you'll need to use an operating system, they're rather essential. Ensuring the basic building blocks are available for future use is beneficial, and showing what has previously been built with them shows why.

No need to be smug, FreeBSD is hardly the only operating system available to us.
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