DC police used sonic cannon to direct crowd flow during Women's March • Hacker News Board

Re: DC police used sonic cannon to direct crowd flow during Women's March

#211

Post by anigbrowl » Thu, Dec 28, 2017, 2:07 AM UTC

fencepost wrote: post #192

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The very next section if the article describes what the police version can do: "There are various models of LRAD, with military grade versions that can send voice communications up to 5.5 miles away, and slightly less powerful versions like the LRAD 500X or 300X which are what police departments generally use. All can produce a sound somewhat akin to a high-powered car alarm that can cause intense headaches, nausea,…

> The very next section if the article describes what the police version can do I understand what it can do. What I care about is what it did do. You might just as well complain about police use of military-style armored vehicles. Did you know they can mount guns on those or even run people over? The way in which things are used matters. In this case, a tool (effectively a high-tech speaker system) that has both offe…

I disagree. You're arguing that it's OK to deploy, it depends on how its used. But that normalizes the use of LRADs, APCs and so on, and by the time they're used in a repressive fashion it's too late to do anything about it.

Re: DC police used sonic cannon to direct crowd flow during Women's March

#212

Post by anigbrowl » Thu, Dec 28, 2017, 2:15 AM UTC

handelaar wrote: post #24

handelaar wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who used to organise large demonstrations in London for CND [a UK anti-nuclear org] a long time ago -- there is no point that the crowd is ever so large that a combination of the organasition itself with the police where the crowd "should" be unable to control it. In fact when you're putting together a demo in London you meet the Met police and meeting that requirement is one of the things you discuss with…

(tl-dr: There's no such thing as a crowd that "should" be uncontrollable. Only a demo that was poorly planned by the people who are supposed to ensure that it's safe for everyone who attends.)

Are demos supposed to always be 'safe'? That seems like pre-emptively neutralizing mass political expression that might actually be motivated by a desire for a change of government. You're basically saying that demonstrations should be gestural, not actually change anything. With that attitude no wonder Blair and Bush pressed ahead with the Iraq war, as there was no danger of having to face any political consequences.

Re: DC police used sonic cannon to direct crowd flow during Women's March

#213

Post by tatersolid » Thu, Dec 28, 2017, 2:52 AM UTC

jjoonathan wrote: post #179

tatersolid wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Umm... not so much. Police forces pre-date the industral revolution by over 2000 years, dating back to ancient China, Greece, and Rome. Their common duty has always been enforcement if of natural law (prevention of theft and violence or investigation and capture of such criminals). Source: Wikipedia. My local sheriff and his crew actually do protect and serve the public. As do 99% of Police in the USA.

Slave rebellions weren't labor movements?

Are you suggesting ancient police were created to stop slave rebellions and not created to prevent the far more common everyday crime?

Source?

Re: DC police used sonic cannon to direct crowd flow during Women's March

#214

Post by emodendroket » Thu, Dec 28, 2017, 2:39 PM UTC

sooheon wrote: post #209

emodendroket wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If those doing the profiling are interested in being successful, and race and religion prove to be ineffective indicators of threat, then such profiling should stop I mean maybe if the profiling is being done by robots, but in reality I have my doubts.

I think humans can do this as well, they just need the right incentive structure (i.e. tied to actual results). CYA security theatre is not it.

I think the bias is too deeply ingrained to disappear without strong, sustained institutional pressure to avoid it.

Re: DC police used sonic cannon to direct crowd flow during Women's March

#215

Post by jjoonathan » Thu, Dec 28, 2017, 11:00 PM UTC

sterlind wrote: post #201

jjoonathan wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the Q of a human? My guess would have been "pretty low." Is that not the case?

[12.2Hz for males, 12.8Hz for females, evidently.]( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/9306739/ ) Using two LRADs emitting ultrasound to cause a difference tone, and some sort of laser range finder to observe oscillation and adjust a phase locked loop, it should be possible to resonate the bodies of people in a crowd at will. as heinous as it'd be to implement this, I kinda want to try it. but that's how we've got…

Q is the quality factor, not the resonant frequency. It's the ratio of stored to dissipated energy, in other words the amount of "amplification" you can achieve by stimulating at the resonant frequency as opposed to the non-resonant frequency. It's never infinite unless you have a system whose oscillations dissipate no energy. In "squishy" systems Q tends to be rather low, and the effects of resonance rather muted. I would expect humans to have a low Q.

Re: DC police used sonic cannon to direct crowd flow during Women's March

#216

Post by TeMPOraL » Fri, Dec 29, 2017, 9:59 PM UTC

imjustsaying wrote: post #174

TeMPOraL wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Path dependence? US went a bit too far in the "individual liberty" direction, and it now can't get out of the mess. In principle, things could be fixed, but good luck getting enough lawyer mass on this.

>individual liberty causes high prices and low quality. this could be fixed with more lawyers please elaborate

Free market causes low quality.

What I meant in my comment was something else though - that strong individual liberty/independence causes difficulties in coordinating people on large-scale infrastructural projects. I.e. by the time you get through all the lawsuits and payouts, your new rail line takes 10x time to build and costs 20x the money a less liberal country would need to spend.