Live data from Hacker News

World's richest 500 see their wealth increase by $1T this year

theguardian.com

141–150 of 284 posts

Re: World's richest 500 see their wealth increase by $1T this year

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn’t have to be symmetric. If there is $2 consumer and $4 producer surplus, both parties benefit. And just because enrichment, as you call it, can happen other ways than exchange, does not mean it doesn’t happen via exchange too.

If it is asymmetric, the superficially apparent mutual gain may be illusory, because—while many people think for moral or aesthetic reasons that this should not be the case—there is enormous empirical evidence that the actual experience of utility related to material position is very strongly driven by relative material position, which is often far more significant than absolute material position.

But is that empirical evidence talking about peoples' overall position, or their position with respect to one particular exchange?

That is, it can be true that I feel rich or poor by comparing myself to others, not based on my absolute wealth. It can also be true that I look at any individual transaction and decide whether to make it or not based on whether it makes me better off in absolute terms.

Re: World's richest 500 see their wealth increase by $1T this year

#142
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The central idea of capitalism is that voluntary exchange enriches both parties. So the answer to your first question is yes.

The central idea of capitalism is the extraction of surplus value via property relations and wage labor. Voluntary exchange is not capitalism. Voluntary exchange has existed since the dawn of society. Capitalism is a form of production that developed with the industrial revolution. I can't tell if you've fallen for or are employing a sleazy equivocation.

No, the central idea of capitalism is the re-investment of the surplus produced, rather than consumption of the surplus, no matter where the surplus came from. The surplus can come from one's own labor, or from a sole proprietorship.

I can tell that you've fallen for Marxist rhetoric.

Re: World's richest 500 see their wealth increase by $1T this year

#143
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true for worldwide poverty. This is not true for US poverty.

In the US "poverty" now includes access to netflix. Poverty has absolutely gotten better in the US over the years.

Toys being abundant and cheaply available didn’t fix poverty.

Re: World's richest 500 see their wealth increase by $1T this year

#144
post #126

As capitalism matures, it's clear to anyone with a thread of financial literacy that most wealth is created through capital gains rather than salary. We're approaching a state (at least in developed countries) where productivity is so high, that you can literally park your money in 500 of the biggest businesses and you're almost guaranteed a 7% annual return (if you hold stocks for the long term). Using the commonly…

None of these things are inherent to capitalism -- they're a result of current policy decisions, and could be fixed with different policy decisions.

Want to reduce the incentive to inherit money and do nothing? Increase the estate tax and lower the threshold where it kicks in.

Want to reduce the disadvantages of earning a salary? Increase taxes on capital gains and dividends and decrease taxes on earned income.

Want to make it easier for everyday folks to take risks and increase innovation? You can start with a comprehensive safety net, and things like universal health care.

Unfortunately (at least in the US) the party currently in power is going in the opposite direction. But it doesn't have to be that way.

Re: World's richest 500 see their wealth increase by $1T this year

#145
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The central idea of capitalism is that voluntary exchange enriches both parties. So the answer to your first question is yes.

The central idea of capitalism is the extraction of surplus value via property relations and wage labor. Voluntary exchange is not capitalism. Voluntary exchange has existed since the dawn of society. Capitalism is a form of production that developed with the industrial revolution. I can't tell if you've fallen for or are employing a sleazy equivocation.

To assert the existence of surplus value, one must also declare the baseline. For Marxists, the baseline is the “labor-value.”

That the labor theory of value is entirely bunk is trivial to see. If you present to a buyer two indistinguishable instances of the same good but describe how one was meticulously hand-crafted by skilled artisans and the other produced by machines in a factory, in the prospective buyer’s view the former is no more valuable than the latter. Value is imputed by the end consumer who is willing to pay only so much for a pair of shoes, a hat, a computer, a book, an automobile, a house, whatever. Marxists object that this is “commodity-fetishism,” but their many syllables fail to camouflage their deep confusion.

Even employers — rather than exploitative expropriators — are sellers of goods or services but buyers of labor, one of many factors of production. Consumers set prices with their willingness to buy. Producers seek to meet this demand at a profit. (Running a break-even operation is a bad model: at best you end up back where you started and otherwise book red ink.) To take profit, they must produce at a cost below what the consumer will pay, the prevailing price. Raw materials must be bought ahead of time. Employees expect regular paychecks. The employer must risk all of these costs by paying up front for a chance of turning a profit in the end.

Employees likewise are sellers of labor, a role that Marxists fail to recognize or else they’d have to slap expropriator labels all around. Employees shop their skills to find the buyer who values them most highly. When a better offer comes along, we usually congratulate the person for finding a better situation even though it is the same worker now supposedly “extracting” more value. The downside is sellers compete against one another. When the value proposition grows too rich, we buyers start shopping elsewhere. “Cheap labor” is nothing nefarious; everyone is looking for a better deal. Sellers of goods, services, and labor must all continue to improve their offerings.

From top to bottom, this is a network built on voluntary exchange with no extraction or exploitation. The ruthless player is the fickle consumer whose tastes, demands, foibles, and sense of urgently are always changing. There’s also Mother Nature, sometimes gentle and sometimes furious. We live in a world of scarcity with the future uncertain. Where will tomorrow’s dinner come from? How will parents pay for their kids’ college years down the road? How will I pay the light bill next month? Capitalism’s aforementioned complex network of voluntary exchanges — “the market,” for short — is a search process for how best to allocate what we have now in order to obtain what we need and want tomorrow.

Re: World's richest 500 see their wealth increase by $1T this year

#146
post #2

This article provides paragraph after paragraph of supporting data that the richest have gotten richer, but none that I can see supporting its claim that “billions of poorer people across the world have seen their wealth standstill or decline”.

If you're burying your head in the sand, you're missing the headlies that wages have been stagnant for decades.

Nearly a billion people have been pulled out of poverty in India and China over the last 25 years. Their wages have at least tripled on average in real terms in the last 20 years. So, it's you who's burying your head in the "America first" sand.

The middle class in the US had enjoyed the fruits of global inequality resulting from colonialism and WW2 during the second half of the 20th century.

As the gap in skills and education between the average American and the rest of the world have disappeared, the former US middle class will see their income gap with the rest of the world also disappear. A teacher, factory worker or a store clerk in the US isn't 20x more productive than a teacher, factory worker or a store clerk in India or China and there's not reason for that wage gap to exist any more.

Re: World's richest 500 see their wealth increase by $1T this year

#147
post #126

As capitalism matures, it's clear to anyone with a thread of financial literacy that most wealth is created through capital gains rather than salary. We're approaching a state (at least in developed countries) where productivity is so high, that you can literally park your money in 500 of the biggest businesses and you're almost guaranteed a 7% annual return (if you hold stocks for the long term). Using the commonly…

> it's clear to anyone with a thread of financial literacy

That's argument from intimidation and not a valid form of argumentation.

> In effect, late stage capitalism becomes the anti-thesis of the spirit of capitalism - devoid of competition, free innovation, and upward mobility

Fortunately the world isn't in late stage Capitalism, because there is no such thing. As one obvious example, China has only begun to emerge from its backwards Communist shell, it's still in the first innings of its application of basic market economics. It's still doing trial runs market economic structures in things like asset ownership in general (eg equities), banking and real-estate. Its currency and bond markets are in the very early development stage. Other emerging economies such as Vietnam, Nigeria, Brazil, India are similarly going through their own very early stage experiments with market economic structures.

In the US, more people are moving up and out of the middle class, than are moving down and out of it. That has been the consistent trend for 50, 30, 15, 10 years.

There's zero evidence to support the notion that either the US or the world are meaningfully devoid of competition. It's competetion in fact that is terrifying so many. 20 years ago Google, Amazon, Facebook, Netflix, Apple, Priceline, SpaceX, Airbnb, Oracle, PayPal/Stripe/Square, Cisco, Uber/Lyft, Airbnb, Spotify, Tesla, T-Mobile, eBay, et al. were either non-existent or small compared to established corporate giants. That's just for the US, China has hundreds of business giants that didn't exist 20 years ago at all.

There's so much competition coming from the US tech giants, the EU is taking aggressive government intervention steps to begin restraining them from routing European competition. That's the exact opposite scenario of not having competition.

Leaders in AI? Not IBM. It's AWS, Google, Microsoft, etc.

Leaders in vehicle automation? GM had to buy its way back to the table, Ford is still running far behind. Companies like Google, Tesla, Uber, and dozens of smaller SV companies, have led the charge.

Leader in electrification of vehicles? Tesla has overwhelmingly led the charge, most everyone else (except perhaps for Nissan and partially GM) is running from years behind.

ULA for the future of space launch? No, it's SpaceX and Blue Origin.

GE? Dying.

Exxon? Dying.

IBM? 21 straight quarters of revenue decline.

Alcoa? Who?

US Steel? Who?

Sears? Dead. Walmart? Mortally terrified of a company that didn't exist in 1993. JC Penney? Dead. KMart? Dead.

Pfizer & Merck? Say hello to Celgene, Biogen, Gilead, Amgen, Regeneron, Vertex, Genzyme, et al.

Banking? Welcome to the online, payments, crypto revolution. Ant Financial is moving more money every year than most of the US financial giants; it didn't exist in 2003. Square, Stripe, PayPal, Ant, Google, Facebook, Apple, Samsung, et al. are setting the stage, not JP Morgan or Bank of America.

Travel? Priceline is more powerful than most airlines or large hotel chains. Ditto Airbnb.

Taxi industry? Largely dead, destroyed, bankrupt. Million dollar medallions? Gone. Say hello to Lyft, Uber, Didi, et al.

Food delivery etc? Booming. Dominated by Sysco, McDonalds, Procter & Gamble, Kraft Heinz? Nope. Companies like UberEats, Grubhub, Blue Apron, and dozens more.

Old media? Dying and desperate. Newspapers? Dead. Old radio giants? Dead. Cable? Bleeding out. Say hello to Netflix, Spotify, Amazon, Hulu, Facebook, YouTube, etc.

The list just keeps going.

Re: World's richest 500 see their wealth increase by $1T this year

#148
$1tn / 500 = $2 bn

$2 bn / 7.6 billion = 0.263

Another way to think about it is that the 500 oligarchs of the world were able to capture a worldwide average of 26.63¢ from each person. In the course of 365 days it's as though each person in the world bought each of the 500 oligarchs in the world a full $0.26/$1.50 = nearly 1/5th of a single vending machine 20 ounce bottle of coke. Multiply that by 500 and you can have a very proper sit-down meal anywhere in the world.

Of course, maybe they generated $500, or $1000, or $3,000 in wealth to do so.

After all, the worldwide real income increased by well over twice that.

But it's that fifth of a bottle of coke that bothers me, personally. Why should bill gates get a quarter from me? He obviously didn't work for it as much as I did. If anything he should be paying me. Why, you ask?

What did I make that he uses? Why, I might as well ask: what do the 500 oligarchs of the world make that anyone uses - wait, don't answer that, I have a point to make here and it would kind of ruin it to know the answer.

My point is, the rich need to stop getting richer. It's just not right.

/s

[1] http://www.ilo.org/global/research/global-reports/global-wag...

Re: World's richest 500 see their wealth increase by $1T this year

#149
post #126

As capitalism matures, it's clear to anyone with a thread of financial literacy that most wealth is created through capital gains rather than salary. We're approaching a state (at least in developed countries) where productivity is so high, that you can literally park your money in 500 of the biggest businesses and you're almost guaranteed a 7% annual return (if you hold stocks for the long term). Using the commonly…

I agree with much of what you said, yet I just don't see it as all that bad of a situation. I still think there is a lot of upward mobility even in that scenario -- the smarter people I know earn good salaries and have nice lifestyles. Nicer than their parents, in most cases, mainly because consumer technology constantly gets better and cheaper. And there is still opportunity for risk takers to start their own compan…

[deleted]

Re: World's richest 500 see their wealth increase by $1T this year

#150
post #126

As capitalism matures, it's clear to anyone with a thread of financial literacy that most wealth is created through capital gains rather than salary. We're approaching a state (at least in developed countries) where productivity is so high, that you can literally park your money in 500 of the biggest businesses and you're almost guaranteed a 7% annual return (if you hold stocks for the long term). Using the commonly…

I agree with much of what you said, yet I just don't see it as all that bad of a situation. I still think there is a lot of upward mobility even in that scenario -- the smarter people I know earn good salaries and have nice lifestyles. Nicer than their parents, in most cases, mainly because consumer technology constantly gets better and cheaper. And there is still opportunity for risk takers to start their own compan…

The question is, how much of the status quo your describe is because we're not in a self contained system, and actually outsource a lot of the problems to developing countries? If the system you describe was constrained to just the United States, and no goods or capital could enter or leave, would we expect a similar system? Because scaled up, that's the world in X decades. Unless we decide, and rely on, various insurrections, rebellions and regime changes to change the system in some countries such that there's always a third world economy to take advantage of. Even if that's the reality of the future (which I think is morally repugnant to rely on), there's no guarantee that cheap external labor won't be extremely constrained in the future, even if it's not entirely gone. (Unless we specifically cause it to be so through political maneuvering and war, but I like to think that's crackpot territory...).
Post reply on HN