Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android • Hacker News Board

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#281

Post by rbanffy » Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 3:38 PM UTC

shadowfox wrote: post #278

rbanffy wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it raises some fairly serious questions around Java's future development as a platform vis a vis the uncertainty recently resolved between Microsoft and the Mono project Microsoft's "Community Promise" does not cover the whole .NET stack - it covers only the ECMA standardized parts. It has "It's a trap" written all over it. I would also think twice before relying on promises from a convicted monopoly abuser.

Now I am not advocating that MS should be given a free hand. But what does being a convicted monopoly abuser have to do with patent traps?

> But what does being a convicted monopoly abuser have to do with patent traps?

It has been already demonstrated they are willing to place profits above ethical and responsible (not to say lawful) behavior.

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#282

Post by StuffMaster » Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 3:39 PM UTC

seldo wrote: post #6

Excuse the really really obvious question, but how can you sue somebody for intellectual property infringement on open-source software? Didn't you already give anybody the license to do what they wanted with it? If they've violated the license terms in some way, isn't that different from IP infringement?

If the license doesn't mention patents, then it doesn't cover them. Copyright licenses and patent licenses are two different things. It's pathetic that the two are actually able to intersect in this manner.

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#283

Post by russell » Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 3:41 PM UTC

napierzaza wrote: post #234

eli wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, there would be no reason to build a defense in the first place if NOBODY ever went on the offense.

FYI there was never a global nuclear holocaust; but people still built nukes. In fact there was never direct fighting between the US and Russia...

At the risk of being a pedantic jerk, the US did send troops to fight on the side of the Czar against the Bolsheviks. They were withdrawn when they found out how bad the Czarists were. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_Bear_Expedition

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#284

Post by drv » Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 3:41 PM UTC

This bit at the end was interesting:

[...] any software found to be in violation of Oracle's copyrights "be impounded and destroyed."

How does one go about rounding up all the copies of something as ephemeral and easily duplicated as software? Is this common wording in software litigation?

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#285

Post by loup-vaillant » Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 3:50 PM UTC

bruceboughton wrote: post #277

loup-vaillant wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering that no definition of "object-oriented" is accepted by everyone, I'm not sure your criticism is valid. My suggestion: drop the term "object-oriented" altogether, and refer to more specific features.

Which brings me back round to my initial assertion: >> You can like lambdas without wanting to go fully functional

Well, F# and Ocaml aren't purely functional… so you're right.

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#286

Post by protomyth » Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 4:06 PM UTC

kenjackson wrote: post #275

seldo wrote: post #6

Excuse the really really obvious question, but how can you sue somebody for intellectual property infringement on open-source software? Didn't you already give anybody the license to do what they wanted with it? If they've violated the license terms in some way, isn't that different from IP infringement?

Just because its open source doesn't mean that IP terms still can't be brought against you. Here's a simple example. Lets say that someone contributes someone else's patented algorithm into gcc. Now you ship gcc, not knowing about the patent infringement. All of a sudden you have a patent lawsuit on your hands. This is probably the biggest reason why companies, like Microsoft, even when they do open source, don't acc…

Java isn't a timebomb. Sun has sold licenses to companies (ex. IBM) and the terms are well understood. Google didn't buy a license and is now going to deal with the outcome. If your running WebSphere or some licensed product this move will not affect you.

Plus, if you are an IT shop in the fortune 500, you company probably has closer ties with Oracle than Google.

// I am a little concerned with non-Java related VM's in case Oracle goes after them with these patents.

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#287

Post by rquirk » Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 4:07 PM UTC

Oracle must be pretty sure of victory, or a positive outcome at least, otherwise why would they go after Google right away? They could have gone after HTC, as Apple did. That would have been a more likely victory, which Oracle could have used as leverage against Google.

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#288

Post by YuriNiyazov » Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 4:12 PM UTC

russell wrote: post #283

napierzaza wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FYI there was never a global nuclear holocaust; but people still built nukes. In fact there was never direct fighting between the US and Russia...

At the risk of being a pedantic jerk, the US did send troops to fight on the side of the Czar against the Bolsheviks. They were withdrawn when they found out how bad the Czarists were. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_Bear_Expedition

Where in that link does it say that the Czarists were bad?

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#289

Post by gruseom » Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 4:23 PM UTC

Timothee wrote: post #83

gahahaha wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He is just trying to save /more/ children in Africa. http://online.wsj.com/article/NA_WSJ_PUB:SB10001424052748704... Larry Ellison is a saint! ... and an asshole.

The letter he wrote for the Giving Pledge website actually shows a bit of him being a saint and an asshole: http://givingpledge.org/#larry_ellison To whom it may concern, Many years ago, I put virtually all of my assets into a trust with the intent of giving away at least 95% of my wealth to charitable causes. I have already given hundreds of millions of dollars to medical research and education, and I will give bill…

Why should he care about the pledge? Taking the letter at face value, he's already gone far further ("at least 95% of my wealth") than the pledgers, and he's done it in private. I can totally understand him not wanting to write such a letter and doing it only as a favour to Buffett, with a certain skepticism. Well-founded skepticism too.

(Or maybe he's just pissed that he had to blow his cover as a supervillain.)

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#290

Post by vetinari » Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 4:24 PM UTC

loup-vaillant wrote: post #243

barrkel wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sum types are not as dynamically extensible at runtime, or by third party libraries, as class polymorphism.

For the particular cases I saw, runtime extensibility never mattered. (Do you have one where it does?) And extending a third party sum type is not very hard: data LibType = Zero | One Int | Two Int Int data MyType = ZeroOneTwo LibType | Three Int Int Int (It of course implies that you use MyType instead of LibType in your code.) Finally, if you really want to extend a sum type, no work around allowed, you might want…

The keywords were "extensible dynamically at runtime", not just "extensible, period".

Runtime extensibility matters at systems that you cannot shut down, where have to upgrade live systems, for example. If you are doing just "run it once again, no big deal" application, then it does not matter, you are right.