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A link between polygamy and war

economist.com

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Re: A link between polygamy and war

#91

Post by PrimHelios »

swombat wrote: post #70
kazagistar wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Correlations implying causation are not logical, and there might be numerous possible other factors causing either or both.

It's not necessarily a "correlation implies causation" fallacy when there is clear and detailed reasoning of how one thing causes the other. Correlation does not prevent causation either. It's not enough to prove causation, but it's a hint that there could be something linking the two factors in some way. I find the article provides a convincing story of how one factor causes the other.

>It's not necessarily a "correlation implies causation" fallacy when there is clear and detailed reasoning of how one thing causes the other.

If that reasoning is unproven, it's just as fallacious to assume that one thing is the result of the other. There are so many arguments that this doesn't work for that it's ridiculous. You can't just make something up and say it's the truth because it isn't illogical and you believe there's an inferred relationship between the two events.

Re: A link between polygamy and war

#93

Post by unmole »

ap3 wrote: post #76
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely the attempt to elicit a higher price via marketing is indicative of a capitalist ideal. Under a communist ideal (ie not necessarily a real system that's ever existed on Earth, AFAICT there has yet to be a state that's fully embraced communism; dictatorships don't count) improvement would be sought in order to better the collective good, rather than elicit a particular family's profit. That a transactional syst…

Agreed. In a communist society you would look out for the greater comunal interest. For example, family would be expected to let their marry to have more children, without expecting anything directly in return, but for the greater good of the people.

We also have a real word example. The Soviet Union awarded medals to women who bore and raised large families: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_Heroine

Re: A link between polygamy and war

#94

Post by zzzzzzzza »

betterunix2 wrote: post #61
whack wrote: post #59

I'm opposed to polygamy for the obvious humanitarian concerns, and other issues raised in the article. But at the same time, I'm curious about the long-term genetic impact of monogamy vs polygamy. IQ and many personality traits have been shown to be correlated significantly with genes (many of these studies are based on adopted children, for whom genes and upbringing are decoupled). In monogamous societies like in Am…

"I'm curious about the long-term genetic impact of monogamy vs polygamy." I think you might be overlooking the fact that women can and do have sex with other men than their husbands.

It's a complicated issue certainly, however as far as I'm aware cuckoldry (where children are product of adultery) is relatively rare, under 2%, don't have a source offhand but that's the hearsay as it were.

Re: A link between polygamy and war

#95

Post by geezerjay »

a2tech wrote: post #35
jrmurad wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What definition of "capitalism" are you using to refer to this as a "capitalist endeavor"? The "return on investment" (as you put it) aspect? Wouldn't, say, a communist make similar justifications? For example: "we provided your education as a child so you'll abide by our directives as an adult."

I don't think buying/selling women was a communist cornerstone. The reason I say this is a capitalist endeavor is the recognition of an asset (the daughter), the want to see the most return (as large of a bride price as possible), and then seeking to improve the asset through education, travel, and competition to lead to a better selling price.

> I don't think buying/selling women was a communist cornerstone

By default in communist regimes women are by default the regime's means of prosuction, destined to a life of work while kept on a maintenance plan by their masters. So whether they aren't being sold, they are managed like an asset, where low upkeep abd high output is favoured while high maintenance and problematic/opinionated individuals are destined to be written-off sue to their impact on production.

Re: A link between polygamy and war

#96

Post by geezerjay »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #52
jrmurad wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I'm not an economist but I'm not seeing a connection. It seems like you just may not like the idea of capitalism and are trying to connect it to something else which you consider to be bad. Turkmenistan's recent history is as a (Soviet) socialist republic and it ranks very, very low on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom . I'd need further convincing that this practice is reflective of a cu…

Surely the attempt to elicit a higher price via marketing is indicative of a capitalist ideal. Under a communist ideal (ie not necessarily a real system that's ever existed on Earth, AFAICT there has yet to be a state that's fully embraced communism; dictatorships don't count) improvement would be sought in order to better the collective good, rather than elicit a particular family's profit. That a transactional syst…

> AFAICT there has yet to be a state that's fully embraced communism; dictatorships don't count)

Ah, the classical "no true scotsman" that pops up in every discussion on the virtues of communism.

It's weird how people praising or arguing in favour of communism repeatedly claim that communism never existed, particularly unsavoury and atrocious communist regimes, but somehow every single far-fetched example involving some kind of transaction that has a negative connotation is somehow a prime candidate to represent capitalism.

Re: A link between polygamy and war

#97

Post by bonesss »

dingle_thunk wrote: post #31

Worth pointing out that in most of the schools of thought in Islam, it’s not advisable to have more than one wife, except in situations where there are significantly more women than men. Islam and polygyny have a long and complex cultural history which is pretty interesting. And there is also polyandry in Christian countries like Nigeria, where cultural exceptions have been made. It seems to be mostly an African & In…

> ... in most of the schools of thought in Islam, it’s not advisable to have more than one wife

I think this holds true in the general case.

I understand the fantasy, but I imagine the reality to be a lot closer to... well, to having two wives.

Re: A link between polygamy and war

#98

Post by NoB4Mouth »

Maybe the topic may sound funny for some but it's not when you experience it.

  I am currently dating a girl who has been force-married at age 12 to a cousin of his father. The man is two decades older than her but she had nothing to say because her consent is not need according to "traditions". Women are "exchanged" as cattle in their culture. Those transactions build inter-tribal relations. I know a bit about their culture because i read social Anthropology @ uni. 

  She run away from the man 4 years ago & came back to live with her parents. The father is still pushing her to go back to the man. He has heard that his daughter is dating someone (Me) and is very treating her shabbily these days. 

  Whereas the girl's mother got to know me and we interact regularly. She is a very kind & soft-spoken woman. Her husband is now accusing her of supporting the "dalliances" of their daughter. The father is the one who is supposed to take the bride-price in case of marriage.

  I'm currently confused about it. I don't want to marry someone i've not paid the bride-price for. I don't want to leave the girl either because the love she has for me.
Hmmmm I'm confused... I'm really confused... Any help or advice...

Re: A link between polygamy and war

#99

Post by perl4ever »

whack wrote: post #59

I'm opposed to polygamy for the obvious humanitarian concerns, and other issues raised in the article. But at the same time, I'm curious about the long-term genetic impact of monogamy vs polygamy. IQ and many personality traits have been shown to be correlated significantly with genes (many of these studies are based on adopted children, for whom genes and upbringing are decoupled). In monogamous societies like in Am…

In a monogamous society the variance in the number of children may be lower, but the variance in number of grandchildren or great-grandchildren can be large.

And as the article mentioned, if children are less likely to live to grow up under polygamy, then that effect is magnified over multiple generations.

Another point is that material success is not completely genetic, and therefore if it is too strongly selected for, good genes will be selected out that would otherwise result in later generations being successful.

So I think it is not at all clear that it is evolutionarily beneficial.

Re: A link between polygamy and war

#100

Post by perl4ever »

golergka wrote: post #83
kazagistar wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Correlations implying causation are not logical, and there might be numerous possible other factors causing either or both.

Not implying. But if you see correlation, it is logical to investigate for a possible causation.

The word "imply" is ambiguous. When people say "correlation doesn't imply causation" they mean that it is invalid logic to say because correlation, thus causation. But in everyday english, imply just means "to suggest", and correlation certainly does suggest causation even though that may not be the case. Correlation may equally suggest causation but in the reverse sense. Or a third cause of both things. I think you should always mentally enumerate those possibilities whenever someone is presenting a correlation.
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