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A link between polygamy and war

economist.com

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Re: A link between polygamy and war

#61

Post by betterunix2 »

whack wrote: post #59

I'm opposed to polygamy for the obvious humanitarian concerns, and other issues raised in the article. But at the same time, I'm curious about the long-term genetic impact of monogamy vs polygamy. IQ and many personality traits have been shown to be correlated significantly with genes (many of these studies are based on adopted children, for whom genes and upbringing are decoupled). In monogamous societies like in Am…

"I'm curious about the long-term genetic impact of monogamy vs polygamy."

I think you might be overlooking the fact that women can and do have sex with other men than their husbands.

Re: A link between polygamy and war

#62

Post by [deleted] »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #52
jrmurad wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I'm not an economist but I'm not seeing a connection. It seems like you just may not like the idea of capitalism and are trying to connect it to something else which you consider to be bad. Turkmenistan's recent history is as a (Soviet) socialist republic and it ranks very, very low on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom . I'd need further convincing that this practice is reflective of a cu…

Surely the attempt to elicit a higher price via marketing is indicative of a capitalist ideal. Under a communist ideal (ie not necessarily a real system that's ever existed on Earth, AFAICT there has yet to be a state that's fully embraced communism; dictatorships don't count) improvement would be sought in order to better the collective good, rather than elicit a particular family's profit. That a transactional syst…

[deleted]

Re: A link between polygamy and war

#63

Post by MechEStudent »

a2tech wrote: post #24

A neat (for lack of a better word) thing to look at is bride prices-this article briefly touches on it but it was something I discussed a lot with our exchange student from Turkmenistan last year. Prior to our conversation I had never spent much time thinking about how buying a bride would work in practice, but it turns out that it ends up being a fine (although horrible) example of capitalist endeavor. So in Turkmen…

I wish parents raised children because they love their children, instead of treating them like human cattle.

I wish that in-laws were looking to maximize lifelong success of their grandchildren by the selection of the character, aptitudes, and excellences of his wife.

A man who is not a coward and not a weakling should find a wife who is better than him, in many ways, who forces him to be his best self and grow in capabilities even when it is painful. He would never give himself so much power over her identity and strength as one gets by "buying" her.

This makes a culture of rape. If the woman is a commodity and her "no" or any other word or personal desire is, in nearly every other context, a doormat to be walked upon then it makes the "valley" between a meaningless no in every other context and the forcing upon her the meaninglessness of a no in a sexual context an inconsequential crack in the ground. Her "no" should always be heard, and that only comes when she is treated as a human, not as a commodity; that only comes when her voice is always heard and valued as much as every other voice.

Re: A link between polygamy and war

#64

Post by belorn »

geodel wrote: post #60
sudhirj wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s also an expectation that women will marry ‘up’, even in first world countries, I think. It’s very ironic that women who develop themselves have a smaller option pool of mates.

Why is it ironic? Isn't it simple default that there are fewer successful people in most commonly used metrics like financially, socially, culturally etc? So if a women is successful they will have less mates to choose from.

If we pick that as the default, then is it then not ironic that successful men (using financial metrics) have a larger option pool of mates?

I personally don't find either ironic, but rather a very clear difference between the genders in the correlation between financial success and dating. The really interesting part is the causes of this difference, and whom is driving it.

Re: A link between polygamy and war

#65

Post by swombat »

a2tech wrote: post #23
captainmuon wrote: post #16

Of course, this applies only if the polygynous marriages are exclusive. I find it in any case hard to imagine how to support four or more wives not just financialy, but also emotionally by myself (unless you think of them as just property). Most people spend hardly enough time with their one spouse. One could imagine that actually polyamourous marriages would reduce violence in such a country. Why don't let your fift…

You'll find from the article that in many cases the wives work at some task and the husband takes the money. So supporting them isn't entirely one sided (ie the husband isn't entirely providing). So you could look at wives in a lot of these cases as productive assets-they work, they provide you with children and raise them, and since they have no/little legal rights you can treat them however you want.

Polyamory (mentioned by captainmuon) is a universe away from what's described in the article.

I recommend reading the book "Sex At Dawn" for a thorough (if somewhat evangelical) dive into polyamory (as opposed to polygamy or monogamy), and how it has been used throughout human history and prehistory to construct stable societies with strong social bonds.

Re: A link between polygamy and war

#66

Post by watwut »

a2tech wrote: post #24

A neat (for lack of a better word) thing to look at is bride prices-this article briefly touches on it but it was something I discussed a lot with our exchange student from Turkmenistan last year. Prior to our conversation I had never spent much time thinking about how buying a bride would work in practice, but it turns out that it ends up being a fine (although horrible) example of capitalist endeavor. So in Turkmen…

The wishes and actions of the sister somehow don't enter this analysis at all. Reading this, it is not even her hard work and effort that got her education and job - the emphasis is on her parents efforts.

And I mean, they contributed, just like all parents contribute to offsprings success or failure. But, we don't talk about it that way normally - especially people in HN like to frame themselves as self-taught or at least as someone who got where he is due to own effort. I haven't seen a single comment here so far that would put that much emphasis on parents work and that little on geeks agency when talking about highly educated geeks without partner.

Re: A link between polygamy and war

#68

Post by pitt1980 »

whack wrote: post #59

I'm opposed to polygamy for the obvious humanitarian concerns, and other issues raised in the article. But at the same time, I'm curious about the long-term genetic impact of monogamy vs polygamy. IQ and many personality traits have been shown to be correlated significantly with genes (many of these studies are based on adopted children, for whom genes and upbringing are decoupled). In monogamous societies like in Am…

Its an interesting thought -

couple thoughts, its assumes a cream rises to the top, such that your mating success will correlate with whether you're smart and industrious

I suspect that there might be a tendency in polygamous societies for there to be a lot of effort put into setting up structural barriers to prevent mating competition from smart and industrious competitors.

Such that you actually weed out a lot of smart/industrious genes.

---------

Its not the case that history doesn't have examples of monogamous societies competing with polygamous societies over the time span of centuries/millennia.

And from a back of the envelope scorekeeping, it doesn't appear that the results are polygamous smart-hard-working-competitive-assholes outcompeting monogamous dolts.

Re: A link between polygamy and war

#69

Post by geodel »

belorn wrote: post #64
geodel wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it ironic? Isn't it simple default that there are fewer successful people in most commonly used metrics like financially, socially, culturally etc? So if a women is successful they will have less mates to choose from.

If we pick that as the default, then is it then not ironic that successful men (using financial metrics) have a larger option pool of mates? I personally don't find either ironic, but rather a very clear difference between the genders in the correlation between financial success and dating. The really interesting part is the causes of this difference, and whom is driving it.

I think larger option pool is not equal to larger option pool to 'marry up'. What I have seen is that successful males often execute option of selecting prettier females instead of successful ones. This thing is far more common in poorer non-western societies but I imagine western societies wouldn't be totally immune to this.

Re: A link between polygamy and war

#70

Post by swombat »

kazagistar wrote: post #58
golergka wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it literally pins the blame for everything bad that non-white people do on the one thing white people ... have criticized others for for two millennia While I don't think that polygamy is the root of all evil, it is a fact that "white people" countries don't have these bad things happening. Wouldn't it be logical to suggest that some difference in behaviour might be the reason for it?

No. Correlations implying causation are not logical, and there might be numerous possible other factors causing either or both.

It's not necessarily a "correlation implies causation" fallacy when there is clear and detailed reasoning of how one thing causes the other.

Correlation does not prevent causation either. It's not enough to prove causation, but it's a hint that there could be something linking the two factors in some way. I find the article provides a convincing story of how one factor causes the other.

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