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A link between polygamy and war

economist.com

21–30 of 109 posts

Re: A link between polygamy and war

#21
post #2

This looks like a case of correlation vs causation. The author tries to link polygamy as a factor to unstable states. I would say poverty is a far more common factor among the countries presented. A counter example would be Saudi Arabia which has polygamy but is stable due to its wealth.

You consider Saudi Arabia "stable"? They just had a coup d'etat this month, and have been involved in plenty of wars in the region, most recently in Yemen.

I'm not sure "being involved in war" has anything to do with being stable, seeing as the US has been "involved in war" for the past 250 years.

Also, Saudi Arabia did not have a coup d'etat by any reasonable definition. MBS "purging" his political opinions does not a coup make.

Re: A link between polygamy and war

#22
post #20

"This is a remarkable article: it literally pins the blame for everything bad that non-white people do on the one thing white people (read Western Europeans) have criticized others for for two millennia: polygamy. Violence? Polygamy. Terrorism? Polygamy. Domestic violence? Polygamy. Child mortality? Polygamy. Of course the article is so high on its own supply that it ignores divorce/remarriage of wives of elite polyg…

The first paragraph is unresponsive. The second paragraph ignores the obvious fact that: 1) in the societies at issue here, divorce and remarriage, and extra-marital sex are not common; and 2) statistics showing that polygamy can be common (e.g. 40% of marriages in the Sudan).

Re: A link between polygamy and war

#23

Of course, this applies only if the polygynous marriages are exclusive. I find it in any case hard to imagine how to support four or more wives not just financialy, but also emotionally by myself (unless you think of them as just property). Most people spend hardly enough time with their one spouse. One could imagine that actually polyamourous marriages would reduce violence in such a country. Why don't let your fift…

You'll find from the article that in many cases the wives work at some task and the husband takes the money. So supporting them isn't entirely one sided (ie the husband isn't entirely providing). So you could look at wives in a lot of these cases as productive assets-they work, they provide you with children and raise them, and since they have no/little legal rights you can treat them however you want.

Re: A link between polygamy and war

#24
A neat (for lack of a better word) thing to look at is bride prices-this article briefly touches on it but it was something I discussed a lot with our exchange student from Turkmenistan last year. Prior to our conversation I had never spent much time thinking about how buying a bride would work in practice, but it turns out that it ends up being a fine (although horrible) example of capitalist endeavor.

So in Turkmenistan its expected that the grooms husband will provide a 'gift' to the parents of the bride. This 'gift' is negotiated between the parents and is for all intents and purposes a bride price. The bride's family obviously is looking for an adequate return on their investment, while the grooms family is looking to get the bride for as cheap as possible. My exchange student's parents are both well educated doctors and her older sister is a US trained economist with an excellent high paying (for Turkmenistan) job, who will in all likelihood inherit an apartment in the city core, and is in fine physical shape.

These are all fine qualities and ones that her parents have invested heavily in over the years with the assumption that her bride price will reflect the investments in her. However, the exact OPPOSITE thing happened. The men in Turkmenistan have no interest-like people the world around they want the best deal possible, so they instead go to the villages and buy a bride from there for a few goats and a handful of cash (our exchange student thought this was a shamefully small amount of money, but for the people in the villages its significant). The men don't expect their wives to work, and aren't looking for intellectual equals. Her parents have effectively improved them to such a point that they've now been priced out of the market.

Re: A link between polygamy and war

#26

HN is just not equipped to discuss this sort of thing.

I think that's because an acknowledgement that the kind of marriage one selects has an "environmental impact" immediately brings the sacred cow of gay marriage into question.

When it really shouldn't. You still have a fundamental right to select the type of relationship that's right for you, but you do have a responsibility to be mindful of its effect on society. This doesn't just mean ban stuff. Perhaps for polygyny, that would translate into making the relationship non-exclusive, rather than choosing against it altogether.

Re: A link between polygamy and war

#27
post #15
post #5

> Wherever it is widely practised, polygamy (specifically polygyny, the taking of multiple wives) destabilises society, largely because it is a form of inequality which creates an urgent distress in the hearts, and loins, of young men. I expected that the sentence ends with "...of young women", because they are obviously seen as objects of a man's wealth and not as individual beings. It is an inequality not only of r…

It makes no sense to discuss objectification in regards to the level of societal development that is implied by polygyny. Nobody there is seen as an individual being in a sense that no one's human rights are guaranteed or even promised to be. This is only about basic needs. Of course, the men at the top are winners, and winners take all. Women are inequally treated by them but get their basic needs covered (safety an…

It's not so different now in America.

Re: A link between polygamy and war

#28
> every time a rich man takes an extra wife, another poor man must remain single

Or he could simply be already dead from all the warfare. These two things connect in positive feedback loop: men dying in war create gender misbalance that would push more women to become second and third wives as well.

Re: A link between polygamy and war

#29
post #24

A neat (for lack of a better word) thing to look at is bride prices-this article briefly touches on it but it was something I discussed a lot with our exchange student from Turkmenistan last year. Prior to our conversation I had never spent much time thinking about how buying a bride would work in practice, but it turns out that it ends up being a fine (although horrible) example of capitalist endeavor. So in Turkmen…

There’s also an expectation that women will marry ‘up’, even in first world countries, I think. It’s very ironic that women who develop themselves have a smaller option pool of mates.

Re: A link between polygamy and war

#30
post #20

"This is a remarkable article: it literally pins the blame for everything bad that non-white people do on the one thing white people (read Western Europeans) have criticized others for for two millennia: polygamy. Violence? Polygamy. Terrorism? Polygamy. Domestic violence? Polygamy. Child mortality? Polygamy. Of course the article is so high on its own supply that it ignores divorce/remarriage of wives of elite polyg…

> it literally pins the blame for everything bad that non-white people do on the one thing white people ... have criticized others for for two millennia

While I don't think that polygamy is the root of all evil, it is a fact that "white people" countries don't have these bad things happening. Wouldn't it be logical to suggest that some difference in behaviour might be the reason for it?

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