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Why hasn't economic progress lowered work hours more? (2016) [video]

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Re: Why hasn't economic progress lowered work hours more? (2016) [video]

#171

For some reason most of us are too afraid of just going home at 5:00 much less asking for reduced hours. My whole working life, I've never used an alarm clock, and I never stayed late unless I was late on a commitment that I made. (This is not the same as some artificial deadline dreamed up by someone else.) I come in late, go home early, sometimes I don't even show up—whatever. If you do this consistently, and deliv…

That's called a delusional software developer bubble. Try this at a minimum wage job or pretty much anything outside of IT.

"Try this at a minimum wage job or pretty much anything outside of IT."

A minimum wage job would have set hours - clock in and clock out - so his comment (strategy) would not be applicable.

Re: Why hasn't economic progress lowered work hours more? (2016) [video]

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's called a delusional software developer bubble. Try this at a minimum wage job or pretty much anything outside of IT.

I've worked plenty of those kinds of jobs. I worked retail, farm labour pumped gas etc. When I worked them I showed up on time. It depends what you sign up for. There are 'availability' jobs and 'ability' jobs. The more you try to find a job tailored to your ability, the less people tend to demand your availability. They will try to demand it anyway, but if you're good you can get them to overlook it. For now I'm luc…

I think you nailed it, you are lucky.

Most jobs do not function like this, to think otherwise is delusional. At every single employer I've ever worked for, if you left early or came in late despite accomplishing all your work, you would get in trouble. I have seen it happen over and over again.

Typically, they will claim that you could have accomplished more work if you were only there for the extra time, regardless of the reality of the situation. Your time outside of work is worthless to the company, and they would rather waste your time so that they can (possibly) squeeze another drop from you.

Re: Why hasn't economic progress lowered work hours more? (2016) [video]

#173
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Better public education (especially for adults) would reduce supply/demand discrepancies, giving the average American employee more bargaining power. Higher wages may also support more smaller/domestically owned businesses, which tend to treat their employees more humanely than huge corporations.

> Higher wages may also support more smaller/domestically owned businesses, which tend to treat their employees more humanely than huge corporations. I’m curious what you base that statement on, as I’ve generally not found it to be true during my career.

Which aspect?

Re: Why hasn't economic progress lowered work hours more? (2016) [video]

#174
Saying that people just like working is ridiculous. It's either author's social bubble or it's straight propaganda. I cannot imagine people in factories or construction saying they like to go to work. The reasons behind the 40-hour week are way more brutal:

- Contemporary economy has surprising amount of internal inefficiency causing most of the value to be wasted.

- Value that is not squandered is distributed unevenly, so most people aren't that much better off.

- Status spending doesn't deliver more value with higher economic output. Status is always scarce. The same goes for several other "resources".

- Mate competition, gender roles, and divorces create separate earners and spenders. Earners have little control over spending and they are thus unable to cut back on work. They are often legally required to work under threat of imprisonment.

- Widespread debt means most people cannot stop working without risking default. Credit availability further encourages irrational spending.

- Most people don't get to choose their working hours. Businesses have the leverage and they choose to max out hours to the legal limit. Governments have little incentive to shorten the work week, because small change won't matter and big change would kill the economy.

- People can retire early or they can take breaks between jobs, but this doesn't work for two reasons: people dislike large swings in their lifestyle and people grow dependent on their income through irrational spending.

Author is right about one thing: the elderly are the winners here. That's where governments can focus their effort. Earlier retirement can be introduced incrementally and it has the smallest impact on economy, because on average older people are less productive anyway.

Re: Why hasn't economic progress lowered work hours more? (2016) [video]

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Retailers have taken it to another level by requiring you to commit to availability without a commitment to have work. Nobody gets 40 hours — you target around 28 typically. Control and keeping high turnover is an objective in retail management. It’s usually cheaper and more efficient to have full time staff, but it’s easier to skimp 5% of labor hours and force the salaried manager to fill the breach.

>Retailers have taken it to another level by requiring you to commit to availability without a commitment to have work. Nobody gets 40 hours — you target around 28 typically. This is the law of unintended consequences as applied to the ACA. If they give you more hours care their costs go up dramatically unless they're already offering health.

It has little to do with the ACA. This has been happening in retail and restaurants for DECADES.

Re: Why hasn't economic progress lowered work hours more? (2016) [video]

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Avg dev salary in Dallas: $93k. Avg dev salary in Berlin: $55k. There's a saying you should be careful with what you wish for, you might as well get it. (I deliberately didn't pick SV/NYC. Dallas and Berlin are very similar cost of living wise.)

You have to consider the wealth of respective countries and cities. E.g. my native Norway which is more similar to the US in GDP per capita has developer salaries closer to the US. Not only is Germany poorer than the US, but Berlin is among the poorer cities in Germany. Hence I don't think it says much about the results of unions. Norway has equally strong unions as Germany and close to 80% of Norwegian workers are u…

From [1], cost of living in Oslo is way higher than Dallas. They're more in line with NYC or SFA. The avg salary is only about $65k [2]. Quite disappointing.

I checked and dev salary in the rest of Germany. Not very different from Berlin.

Switzerland does pay handsomely. But, unlike neighbors, unions have quite minor role. And labor laws are way more lax than France or DE.

About prevalece of manufacturing in Germany, France has similar salaries despite being a more services oriented economy.

[1]https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...

[2] https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/oslo-software-engineer-sa...

Re: Why hasn't economic progress lowered work hours more? (2016) [video]

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Total taxation is at 26% of GDP in the U.S., 34% in much of the rest of the developed world. http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/how-do-us-taxes...

Are you sure Tax Policy Center can be trusted? Those numbers seem very low for Ireland. I'm willing to be wrong but something seems very off here.

Ireland is a notorious tax haven.

Re: Why hasn't economic progress lowered work hours more? (2016) [video]

#178
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

want to add the additional annual leave you get in Germany and average cost of the same health care in Dallas into that equation let alone the other benefits?

The $55k are pre-tax, and the "free" healthcare in contries with public health care are mostly paid out of those taxes. There is probably a point in there about shorter work days and legally mandated overtime pay, but it doesn't add up to 40k per year. Honestly, the more I look at this, the more it seems like there are hidden mechanisms that keep pay below market value in many European countries. E.g. wage collusion…

Now you mentioned taxes, let's get more numbers! Yay!

Income taxes in Texas for 95k amounts to about 27%. Income tax in Berlin for $60k (30y, no children, left other options on defaults) amounts to 33%. The after tax difference is about $30k then.

Tuition in UT Dallas, 4y engineering bachelor degree, is $45k. Free in DE, but you pay that in less than two years with the difference in salary.

Public transport? In US the TCO is estimated at $8500 yearly. In Berlin you can get an annual tickets for $1100. It's not directly comparable but you get the picture. For better perspective, NYC 30d passes sets you back at $1450 per year.

Re: Why hasn't economic progress lowered work hours more? (2016) [video]

#179
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

want to add the additional annual leave you get in Germany and average cost of the same health care in Dallas into that equation let alone the other benefits?

The $55k are pre-tax, and the "free" healthcare in contries with public health care are mostly paid out of those taxes. There is probably a point in there about shorter work days and legally mandated overtime pay, but it doesn't add up to 40k per year. Honestly, the more I look at this, the more it seems like there are hidden mechanisms that keep pay below market value in many European countries. E.g. wage collusion…

>hidden mechanisms that keep pay below market value

There is also non-cash compensation that doesn't get reported in "average" salary. For example, my telecom engineer friend in Germany has a benefit of having a car leased for him by the company. The level of the car depends on the position, so he has 3-series (only German cars can be leased, of course). The reason for this it's more profitable for the company tax-wise to lease cars for employees than to pay same amount in cash.

Re: Why hasn't economic progress lowered work hours more? (2016) [video]

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Avg dev salary in Dallas: $93k. Avg dev salary in Berlin: $55k. There's a saying you should be careful with what you wish for, you might as well get it. (I deliberately didn't pick SV/NYC. Dallas and Berlin are very similar cost of living wise.)

Odd, because people I talk to from Berlin are horrified at the cost of living here. I'm not sure you're comparing apples with apples.

Cost of living is comparable in USD terms. They're perceived to be higher because people earn less. Your $1000 rent feels more expensive for a Berliner earning $3000/mo after tax than for the $5800/mo Texan.
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