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Why hasn't economic progress lowered work hours more? (2016) [video]

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Re: Why hasn't economic progress lowered work hours more? (2016) [video]

#101

It has. 80 years ago your worked more hours, and you could not slack at work. Today, you work not only less, but half of the people in the offices I go to don't work their full shift. They go to facebook, send text messages, take long breaks, do their shopping and watch porno (yep), etc. Also, an hour of work doesn't have the same value. When your work is moving boxes, an hour is an hour. But in an office work, there…

The stats I read says that Americans now work more hours. And likely, you need a better job.

Re: Why hasn't economic progress lowered work hours more? (2016) [video]

#102
post #39

It has. 80 years ago your worked more hours, and you could not slack at work. Today, you work not only less, but half of the people in the offices I go to don't work their full shift. They go to facebook, send text messages, take long breaks, do their shopping and watch porno (yep), etc. Also, an hour of work doesn't have the same value. When your work is moving boxes, an hour is an hour. But in an office work, there…

80 years ago women could afford to stay at home.

They also had to stay at home, at least middle class. Poorand blacks were in different situation anyway. And wen were completely dependent on men and f@cked when he died or got sick.

Re: Why hasn't economic progress lowered work hours more? (2016) [video]

#103
post #71
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Employers, especially those that pay benefits, want you working as much as possible. Anything less is money on the table. That’s exactly Marx’s point when he discusses his theory of Surplus Value. I know that that theory has been “debunked” and “proven” to be false, but I’m just reading now about it in its “Grundrisse” (I had read its Capital I some years ago) and it’s frightening about how right he was about subje…

"That’s exactly Marx’s point when he discusses his theory of Surplus Value." Actually, no. This has nothing to do with Marx "surplus value". And his idea of "surplus value" was wrong by several reasons. The funny thing about Marx is that he failed to understand capitalism as much as good ol' Ludwig von Mises.

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Re: Why hasn't economic progress lowered work hours more? (2016) [video]

#104

It has. 80 years ago your worked more hours, and you could not slack at work. Today, you work not only less, but half of the people in the offices I go to don't work their full shift. They go to facebook, send text messages, take long breaks, do their shopping and watch porno (yep), etc. Also, an hour of work doesn't have the same value. When your work is moving boxes, an hour is an hour. But in an office work, there…

Yeah that's one thing I'm really looking forward to when the kids leave is being able to pursue meaningful work again. My experience with corporate America is that it's almost indistinguishable from government in terms of work environment. The waste and apathy toward it just turns my stomach.

Re: Why hasn't economic progress lowered work hours more? (2016) [video]

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is such a thing as working too hard, to one's own detriment.

"Economically, you can think of a startup as a way to compress your whole working life into a few years. Instead of working at a low intensity for forty years, you work as hard as you possibly can for four. This pays especially well in technology, where you earn a premium for working fast." —Paul Graham

That kind of ignores how human bodies work when tired and sleep deprived.

Re: Why hasn't economic progress lowered work hours more? (2016) [video]

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Causally?

Yes. Here's one example https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S027795361...

Huh. That's certainly interesting.

OK, let me make (part of) my point explicit: Inequality is frequently posed as a causal factor for a lot of things in ways that make no sense or when something else is actually meant. Such as:

1. Using inequality in place of poverty. The paper you link to explicitly excludes the simpler poverty hypothesis, but most argument I encounter on the internet doesn't bother to. (And then there's the tendency to jump to inequality as primary explanation when there's clearly something else going on screwing things up...)

2. In some cases inequality is posed as a causal factor in cases where the relation is clearly logical or compositional, not causal. People make statements basically analogous to "all-cause mortality causes murder". You could say the causation is backwards there, but in truth there's no causation at all -- it's a logical relation, not a causal one.

3. To use what's discussed in this paper as an example, sickness, like poverty, is fundamentally local; if you look at it at the group level you're simply aggregating what's going on with individuals. By contrast inequality only makes sense at the group level; it's fundamentally nonlocal, in a sense. The authors of this paper you link address this, noting that they're not committing an ecological fallacy because they're only looking at health outcomes at the group level. Nonetheless health outcomes at the group level are fundamentally an aggregate of individual health outcomes, so the question remains how individual health outcomes are affected. The authors provide some plausible speculation on this point; on the whole I think they've supported their point pretty well. But I think in general we should be quite skeptical of such explanations without a good reason to the contrary, because causation is fundamentally local; if you need to look at a property of the whole group when discussing individual outcomes, that's a point where you should stop and ask if that's really what's going on here, or whether there's a simpler explanation.

Worth noting is that the paper you link to, though it mostly discusses this nonlocal measure of inequality, when it comes time to talk about a mechanism, about "biological plausability", they talk about local gradients in social status. And if that's the real explanation then I think talking about this in terms of "income inequality" is misleading. (The authors get around this, as I noted above, by saying they're only going to focus on the group outcome, not individual outcomes. But for the reason I said above, to my mind that's just evading the problem, or solving an easier problem in place of the real one.) Because then it's not nonlocal inequality that's causal, but rather local inequality, and not inequality of income but of social status. Which is not the thing the authors are discussing in most of the paper! The thing the authors are claiming is causal, is not the same thing they actually posit as a mechanism. One needs to be careful here. These details matter.

Re: Why hasn't economic progress lowered work hours more? (2016) [video]

#107
post #83
post #9

Most people don't get to choose how many hours they work. Employers, especially those that pay benefits, want you working as much as possible. Anything less is money on the table. (I'm not an employer.) It's good for an employer if you work overtime, all he has to pay is time, or time and a half, or nothing if you're salaried. He doesn't have to pay more benefits, as he would with an additional employee. Of course an…

People that enjoy living in countries with strong union law usually get to choose, unless they rather keep quiet instead of reporting abuses to the respective work authorities. This includes IT related jobs. If people on US and other countries want these benefits, choose to get strong instead of demonizing unions.

Avg dev salary in Dallas: $93k. Avg dev salary in Berlin: $55k.

There's a saying you should be careful with what you wish for, you might as well get it.

(I deliberately didn't pick SV/NYC. Dallas and Berlin are very similar cost of living wise.)

Re: Why hasn't economic progress lowered work hours more? (2016) [video]

#108
post #9

Most people don't get to choose how many hours they work. Employers, especially those that pay benefits, want you working as much as possible. Anything less is money on the table. (I'm not an employer.) It's good for an employer if you work overtime, all he has to pay is time, or time and a half, or nothing if you're salaried. He doesn't have to pay more benefits, as he would with an additional employee. Of course an…

Not for hourly paid workers it isn't that its where you made bank - you know you should never post first class post on Friday - they keep some back for the OT shifts at the weekend

Re: Why hasn't economic progress lowered work hours more? (2016) [video]

#109
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Economically, you can think of a startup as a way to compress your whole working life into a few years. Instead of working at a low intensity for forty years, you work as hard as you possibly can for four. This pays especially well in technology, where you earn a premium for working fast." —Paul Graham

That kind of ignores how human bodies work when tired and sleep deprived.

I am definitely not celebrating it. It seems obvious to me that the human with the most stamina will have an edge in any sort of competition that involves hard work, from marathons to startups.

Re: Why hasn't economic progress lowered work hours more? (2016) [video]

#110
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People that enjoy living in countries with strong union law usually get to choose, unless they rather keep quiet instead of reporting abuses to the respective work authorities. This includes IT related jobs. If people on US and other countries want these benefits, choose to get strong instead of demonizing unions.

Avg dev salary in Dallas: $93k. Avg dev salary in Berlin: $55k. There's a saying you should be careful with what you wish for, you might as well get it. (I deliberately didn't pick SV/NYC. Dallas and Berlin are very similar cost of living wise.)

want to add the additional annual leave you get in Germany and average cost of the same health care in Dallas into that equation let alone the other benefits?
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