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LisaOS to be open-sourced and donated to Computer History Museum

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Re: LisaOS to be open-sourced and donated to Computer History Museum

#21

Post by armadsen »

beamatronic wrote: post #20
dreamcompiler wrote: post #19

In the earliest days of the Mac (1984) you had to have a Lisa to develop for the Mac, because that was the machine the Pascal compiler ran on. I bought a Lisa and a Mac for this reason. It'll be fun to see the source code.

Wasn't that enormously expensive? Was it purely for fun or did you recoup your investment?

It sure was. The Lisa originally sold for $10,000 in 1983. The price dropped to about $5k (IIRC) for the Lisa 2 which came out the same day as the original Mac, but that was still very expensive.

128K Mac ($2500) + Lisa 2 ($5000) = $7500 in 1983 (~$18,600 in 2017 dollars).

Re: LisaOS to be open-sourced and donated to Computer History Museum

#22

Post by armadsen »

dreamcompiler wrote: post #18
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LisaOS really was a different beast than Mac OS, and very little code was shared between the two from what I've read. Just some QuickDraw code is my understanding. LisaOS was multitasking and more object oriented and more like a true OS from the start. I'm super excited to be able to read the sources now.

Yep. In some ways LisaOS was ahead of where MacOS is now. It had stationery pads, for example, and it just felt snappier. On a processor 1/1000 as fast as a current Mac.

macOS actually has stationery pads! https://www.macworld.com/article/1161619/software-utilities/...

But Lisa OS was amazing, and was ahead of the original macOS in many ways: preemptive multitasking, way nicer error messages, hierarchical files system, a more fully fleshed out desktop/document metaphor, etc.

I think the Lisa OS's error messages are still better than macOS's.

Re: LisaOS to be open-sourced and donated to Computer History Museum

#23

Post by armadsen »

djsumdog wrote: post #3

Lisa was the really expensive Apple aimed at businesses right? I think I've seen it mentioned on the 8-Bit Guy's show. I wish I had visited the CHM when I was out on the west coast. I'll have to add it to the list for next time. I have been to the Living Computer Museum in Seattle. For those of you travelling there, I highly recommend it and Recycle PC (in the same area). They've got a ton of old working systems you…

The Living Computer Museum is incredible. Worth noting in the context of this article is that among the many machines they have working and available to play on is a Lisa 2 running Lisa OS.

Re: LisaOS to be open-sourced and donated to Computer History Museum

#24

Post by armadsen »

intrasight wrote: post #8

That's pretty neat - from a computer history perspective. I assume the museum has a Lisa. It's one of the few Apple products I've never seen in person.

They not only have a Lisa, they have a Lisa 1, which is very rare. The last one that sold at auction (in the past few months) sold for around $50,000. I've seen estimates for the number remaining in existence as low as 30. It didn't sell well originally, but more importantly, Apple offered all Lisa 1 owners a free upgrade (via modification) to a Lisa 2 when it was released, and most took them up on it.

Lisa 2's are much easier to come by, especially as the "Mac XL" which sold decently as a high-end Mac. I've got a Lisa 2 running Lisa OS myself.

Re: LisaOS to be open-sourced and donated to Computer History Museum

#25

Post by SwellJoe »

djsumdog wrote: post #3

Lisa was the really expensive Apple aimed at businesses right? I think I've seen it mentioned on the 8-Bit Guy's show. I wish I had visited the CHM when I was out on the west coast. I'll have to add it to the list for next time. I have been to the Living Computer Museum in Seattle. For those of you travelling there, I highly recommend it and Recycle PC (in the same area). They've got a ton of old working systems you…

I bought a Lisa system and lots of accessories at a garage sale when I was a kid. The guy had kept all the receipts for everything, and the total, including a couple of 5MB and one 10 MB hard disk, was over $20,000. He used it for business, and it had some business apps that I don't recall. I sold the whole pile of stuff for a few hundred dollars (and I paid less than that for it, I don't remember how much, but I was usually spending less than $100 on 8 bit stuff or PCs that needed work, so it couldn't have been much), and it's probably the machine (of many really cool/weird/rare things) that I wish I'd somehow kept through all those years. Such an interesting piece of history. But, I was a Commodore fanatic at the time, and didn't really get excited about Apple products (and still mostly don't, kinda for the same reason, summed up by an old Tramiel slogan "for the masses not the classes").

And, yes, the CHM is well worth a visit. I used to take everyone who came to visit me in Mountain View to see it, even if they weren't nerds. It is an enjoyable and educational afternoon, I think, for anyone with even a little curiosity about the history of the devices we all rely on.

Re: LisaOS to be open-sourced and donated to Computer History Museum

#26

Post by eesmith »

zitterbewegung wrote: post #6

I think a better name for this would be Mac OS series 0. Going back to being serious seeing the source code for LisaOS sounds exciting . Apple changed my life when I used an Apple 2 in grade school. My first computer I got for Christmas was a G5 iMac. In college I used MacBooks and they replaced one with a newer model. I’m not sure I would have my current job if I wasn’t in Steve’s paradise .

I feel that calling it "Mac OS series 0" comes too close to a touchy subject for it to be considered a better name.

Raskin's original vision for the Macintosh project was a text-based UI. (The Canon Cat was a descendant of that design.) Only later did Macintosh gain support for the Lisa-style graphical programs.

I don't know the timeline, but I can point to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh which says:

> Smith's first Macintosh board was built to Raskin's design specifications: it had 64 kilobytes (kB) of RAM, used the 8-bit Motorola 6809E microprocessor, and was capable of supporting a 256×256-pixel black-and-white bitmap display. Bud Tribble, a member of the Mac team, was interested in running the Apple Lisa's graphical programs on the Macintosh, and asked Smith whether he could incorporate the Lisa's Motorola 68000 microprocessor into the Mac while still keeping the production cost down. By December 1980, Smith had succeeded ...

Then at https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&stor... you read that "the very first prototype of the very first Macintosh sprung to life early in the first month of the new decade, in January 1980" with the 6809E. That would be before the 68000 was added.

If that prototype - or any prototype before the 68000 was added - had an operating system, then that should be called "Mac OS series 0."

Re: LisaOS to be open-sourced and donated to Computer History Museum

#27

Post by kkylin »

macintux wrote: post #10
fallous wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually there was a patch for the Lisa that allowed it to run Mac OS and software (maybe called a Mac XL?). I believe it was a combination of ROMs and disks but it's been a day or two since I dealt with that so I may be mis-remembering.

I believe you're correct; Mac XL sounds right to me, too.

Yup, Macintosh XL (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh_XL). I remember a company (forget the name, likely long gone) at a Macworld Expo (in Moscone!) in the late 80s or early 90s selling refurbished Lisas and Mac XLs.

Re: LisaOS to be open-sourced and donated to Computer History Museum

#30

Post by DonHopkins »

eesmith wrote: post #26
zitterbewegung wrote: post #6

I think a better name for this would be Mac OS series 0. Going back to being serious seeing the source code for LisaOS sounds exciting . Apple changed my life when I used an Apple 2 in grade school. My first computer I got for Christmas was a G5 iMac. In college I used MacBooks and they replaced one with a newer model. I’m not sure I would have my current job if I wasn’t in Steve’s paradise .

I feel that calling it "Mac OS series 0" comes too close to a touchy subject for it to be considered a better name. Raskin's original vision for the Macintosh project was a text-based UI. (The Canon Cat was a descendant of that design.) Only later did Macintosh gain support for the Lisa-style graphical programs. I don't know the timeline, but I can point to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh which says: > Smith'…

Wow, the 6809 was the Chrysler Cordoba of 8 bit microprocessors! It was tastefully luxurious and highly orthogonal, sporting a powerful hardware multiply instruction, and soft Corinthian Leather.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_6809

https://youtu.be/tfKHBB4vt4c?t=10s

But I'm sure glad they ended up using the 68K for the Mac.

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