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Jakarta Is Sinking So Fast, It Could End Up Underwater

nytimes.com

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Re: Jakarta Is Sinking So Fast, It Could End Up Underwater

#91

Post by blunte »

tormeh wrote: post #70
Retra wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a really careless and thoughtless opinion, and it completely dismisses the complexity of human organizational decision making.

OTOH, it is a problem that can't be solved with aid. Whether you pity them or not, you have no real choice other than to watch the catastrophe happen.

The only real solution, imo (obviously) requires generations of effort and education. You have to instill within the people a sense of importance of collective good and shared responsibility. It seems that lack of shared responsibility is what causes many of the problems in that region.

I wouldn't say it has anything to do with religion, but I find it a bit curious that Bali (which has a very different religion than the rest of Indonesia) seems to have a bit more of a sense of shared responsibility. Or maybe their religious followings dictate more activities that happen to benefit the general population. Still, though, it's a bit of a mess by other standards. And still, I would happily be back in Bali during the European winters.

Re: Jakarta Is Sinking So Fast, It Could End Up Underwater

#92

Post by blunte »

newfoundglory wrote: post #33
mattdeboard wrote: post #28

Well actually adjusts fedora rate of sinking is orthogonal to whether it winds up underwater

Well actually , if it sinks slowly enough then people could build sea walls and so on to keep the water out.

But if you see my unfortunately long comment elsewhere, there will be some locals who will cut holes in your wall to facilitate foot traffic.

Re: Jakarta Is Sinking So Fast, It Could End Up Underwater

#93

Post by blunte »

bogomipz wrote: post #8
Feniks wrote: post #4

Yeah Jakarta was founded as the Amsterdam of the East Indies. Sadly Indonesia doesn't have the near limitless resources of its old colonial owner that keeps Amsterdam/Holland from sinking. Climate change is going to hurt the poorer countries the most.

Indonesia actually has a larger GDP than the Netherlands and the largest economy in South East Asia

With 300 million people compared to 18 million in Netherlands, I'm not sure it's worth mentioning.

But if your point is that Indonesia is not to be overlooked, then that is quite true.

Re: Jakarta Is Sinking So Fast, It Could End Up Underwater

#94

Post by DonHopkins »

oldandtired wrote: post #84
DonHopkins wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like you made a big mistake when you did the simple calculations yourself, so we'd like to see YOUR work. Because if you actually did the simple calculations correctly, and if you actually did get the results you claim, then you should be to quite happy show your work to us. Or did the dog eat your homework? Are you suddenly so indignant about being asked for proof because you're just blustering, and demandi…

See the starting point below. It will take you five minutes to do the calculations. Then you make up your mind if "politically correct" is an appropriate label.

Starting point? I though they were "simple calculations" that you had already easily performed and completely finished correctly, that anyone else should easily be able to do, which proved your point beyond a doubt. Why are you changing the goalposts? Take the five minutes and finish your own homework yourself instead of telling me to do it for you.

"Politically Correct" describes the Trump Administration's politically motivated denial of science. "Scientifically Correct" describes the vast body of consistent peer reviewed evidence that you and the Trump Administration are denying, on which an overwhelming majority of scientists agree.

The burden of proof and obligation to take at least five minutes citing evidence and crunching the numbers lies in your court, since you're the one calling everyone a liar then changing the goalposts. So start responding to people's questions and stop stonewalling and deflecting.

The fact that you agree with Donald Trump and parrot his blustering insincere persuasion techniques instead of citing scientific evidence should be a clue that you're wrong.

What else do you agree with him on? Do you also agree with Donald Trump that teaching evolution and allowing gay marriage is "political correctness", too? And what about all those women who accused him and Roy Moore of sexual assault, is each and every one of them a liar too, just like all of those scientists?

Re: Jakarta Is Sinking So Fast, It Could End Up Underwater

#95

Post by DonHopkins »

oldandtired wrote: post #82
rainbowmverse wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These simple calculations and the data needed for them would be a great thing for you to provide to support your claims.

I have provided this information in detail in the past and those who have challenged me to do so haven't even bothered to check it or respond. The information is freely available in all sort of resources. The bits you need are the surface area of the earth and the surface area of the oceans, the volume of land based ice required to melt to fill the appropriate surface area to whatever level you require (in my case 1…

Now that your rant has ended, have you ever considered the possibility that there are other reasons you're an anathema and nobody takes you seriously, other than a well organized worldwide conspiracy against you? That would be the scientific thing to do.

First it was 5 minutes. Now it's 20 minutes. Why do you keep missing your own deadlines and changing the goalposts more often than you post any citations to scientific evidence or convincing mathematical proofs like you claim to have and everyone keeps asking you for? You keep throwing out numbers and mentioning "studies done" but never name your sources or link to any of them. Why not? You've been admittedly ranting for a lot longer than you said it would take to actually do the math, and you obviously have enough time on your hands, so get started.

You keep saying how quick and easy it would be for an adult to prove it, yet you never do that yourself. Am I correct to conclude that you're not actually an adult?

Re: Jakarta Is Sinking So Fast, It Could End Up Underwater

#96

Post by DonHopkins »

oldandtired wrote: post #86
oldandtired wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To make things real simple for those who can't use a search engine, try the following earth surface area: 510072000 sq km ocean surface area: 361132000 sq km latent heat of melting (ice to water): 334 kJ/kg From these you can calculate the amount (volume) of land based ice required for whatever ocean level rise you need and the amount of energy required to melt said ice. Note that since only a portion of energy will…

Shripadk, mean sea level is actually irrelevant as far as these calculation are concerned. Really irrelevant. The climate scientists throw around their 1 to 10 metre or more scenarios and so all we need concern ourselves with is the gross minimum volume of ice required to melt. Since the planet is an oblate sphere with a non-uniform land distribution and we have a large moon orbiting the planet, any prediction of wha…

Again, we keep asking you for proof and citations and links to your sources, and you keep calling people liars and deflecting from answering the questions. Until you post links to sources that actually prove what you say, instead of reciting anecdotes about how some mean old scientist ignored you 15 years ago, there's no reason for anyone to take you seriously, and there's a lot of evidence explaining why you're treated like an anathema.

Re: Jakarta Is Sinking So Fast, It Could End Up Underwater

#97

Post by rriepe »

sathackr wrote: post #87
dghughes wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What connection? To me the reporter stated the sinking was not due to climate change the ground is sinking faster than the sea levels are rising - it's not due to climate change. But the rising sea level is obviously occuring at the same time as the sinking ground which makes the sitution worse. >In fact, Jakarta is sinking faster than any other big city on the planet, faster, even, than climate change is causing the…

The tagline for the article: > "...And it has to deal with mounting threats from climate change." Paragraphs 4,5,6: One local climate researcher, Irvan Pulungan, an adviser to the city’s governor, fears that temperatures may rise several degrees Fahrenheit, and the sea level as much as three feet in the region, over the coming century. That, alone, spells potential disaster for this teeming metropolis. But global war…

It was probably written, added, or altered by an editor, not the reporter.

Re: Jakarta Is Sinking So Fast, It Could End Up Underwater

#98

Post by DonHopkins »

sathackr wrote: post #25

So the city is sinking many inches, even feet per year(due to excessive ground water withdrawals). With all the problems the city has, how does climate change(an average sea level rise of a few millimeters per year) even wind up on the reporters radar? I'm no denier, but it aggravates me when someone tries to force a connection to global warming/climate change.

I'm no $whatever, but anything after the word "but" in this sentence structure usually contradicts the first clause of the sentence.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/I%27m_not_prejudiced,_but%2e%2...

Re: Jakarta Is Sinking So Fast, It Could End Up Underwater

#99

Post by cinquemb »

blunte wrote: post #90

"Nobody here believes in the greater good" - this, and an apparent basic lack of education. Remember that time in western history that we learned of the benefits of washing hands for disease control? I have witnessed people in Jakarta regularly urinating into little drainage ditches just a few meters away from people who were washing their dishes. You could assume they do this because there are not better places to w…

I've been living in Jakarta for about a year and a half now, and Id agree with what you are saying overall.

I think a big problem is that since a lot of the institutions are at the national level with offices locally (very different from having institutions organized/with jurisdiction locally and having one or more overarching above/beside them), such that there's no "competition" over local governance which would naturally attract/repel people to regions over others based on how things are run. Which incidentally, seems in line with the pervasiveness of the corruption.

You just wont get the local office for the national police to care about people cutting holes in the flood walls, or pretty much anything unless you pay them.

Re: Jakarta Is Sinking So Fast, It Could End Up Underwater

#100

Post by [deleted] »

analyst74 wrote: post #46
chewz wrote: post #3

Entire Indonesia is falling apart. Economic development is terribly slow over long term and their main export industries (oil, mining, coal and palm oil - [1]) do not seem to have a future due to underinvestment and drying demand. Quite sad.. Such a beautiful, diverse country and nice people. [1] https://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/idn/#Exports

> nice people depends on what time period you lived there, and what ethnicity/religion you belong to. The multiple racially motivated riots around the turn of century are still fresh in many people's memory.

[deleted]
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