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Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#221

Post by marcosdumay »

lostlogin wrote: post #212
marcosdumay wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so? What is that large difference? Authoritarian states deal with their people basically as if they were their property. They dispose of their lives at will, they dictate what they think and what they work on, they take their labor at will.

Sorry, I misunderstood your original comment as referring to the the US. However I don’t think that the system in China is like what happened with slavery (it is China you refer to?). People aren’t kidnapped, chained and transported in conditions that kill large numbers. They aren’t traded in degrading markets and are not routinely beaten to death or mutilated by masters. They aren’t branded. As bad as conditions cur…

I wasn't talking specifically about China, or specifically about America colonialism style slavery. But I would bet that there are plenty of people kidnaped and forcefully transported around the country on China for labor, that's what that kind of government normally does.

They may not be traded on degrading markets, but that just make people valueless from the point of view of a dictatorship. And I do actually expect people are being mutilated by the Chinese government all the time, we just probably don't hear about it. Again, that what this kind of government normally does.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#222

Post by erikpukinskis »

yesenadam wrote: post #72
glenstein wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think whataboutism, or exhortations to appreciate the complexity of global politics carry more value than the basic, straightforward observation that what happened at Tiananmen was horrible and unforgiveable, and should forever be held against China. People don't have the energy to protest everything, because we're poor, exhausted, distracted, and yes, often confused and hypocritical. It doesn't mean the obse…

OK, so to take just one example, say 50 or so Tiananmens died in the latest US appalling invasion/massacre of Iraq. So that was 50x as horrible and unforgiveable, and should 'forever be held against the USA' in the same essentially horrified way? Something comparable happened every few years of the last century. I get the feeling most people reading this will hold more against me for saying this, than against the US…

> should 'forever be held against the USA' in the same essentially horrified way?

Yes! Of course. Do you think those of us who think Tiananmen Square was an atrocity that should not have been forgotten are waving away slavery or the current American prison system as forgiveable?

We’re not. America’s sins are many and we are squaring up to those too.

I have a hard time believing all of you posting this are actual HN readers and not paid political operatives. I don’t know how anyone could read this board and think none of us are criticizing the U.S.

The crimes of all nations will be laid bare to history. No one will be spared. There guilty will pay and then history will move on. Not before.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#223

Post by erikpukinskis »

intro-b wrote: post #112
mutteraloo wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a very easy way anyone can start fighting against a brutal regime like this: Stop buying stuff from China. Just stop. Support local made.

"Stop buying things from [x]" probably hasn't been an effective mantra for several decades. The U.S., E.U., China, Japan, and other nations are all intractably linked in the global supply chain economy.

Just because it want effective before doesn’t mean it won’t be effective in the future. It’s never been easier to buy local than it is now. It’s never been easier to organize boycotts than it is now.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#224

Post by erikpukinskis »

b6 wrote: post #118
mutteraloo wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a very easy way anyone can start fighting against a brutal regime like this: Stop buying stuff from China. Just stop. Support local made.

Have you lived in China? Your suggestion, if taken seriously by a lot of people, would just further harm ordinary Chinese people who are already being harmed by a parasitic government over which they have no control.

How would it harm them? Trickle-down economics?

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#225

Post by yogenpro »

aleyan wrote: post #55

> The figure was given in a secret diplomatic cable from then British ambassador to China, Alan Donald. > Mr Donald's telegram is from 5 June, and he says his source was someone who "was passing on information given him by a close friend who is currently a member of the State Council". Here we have a telegram by a guy (British Ambassador) who heard from a guy (unknown) who heard from a guy (unknown State Council) fac…

In terms of the source, on a side note, I personally know people who were on the square that day, and later escaped to the US to seek asylum under Chinese Student Protection Act of 1992 [1]. They have a lot of first-hand information and photographs, but wouldn't release them to media because they still have families live in China, and as a consequence of release those information, PRC may reject their entry in the future. To most of the people getting the truth out to the world doesn't outweigh the freedom of visiting families and friends, which is reasonable.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Student_Protection_Act...

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#226

Post by lostlogin »

osdiab wrote: post #213
lostlogin wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the ends justify the means > lots of morally reprehensible stuff that cannot be excused. Which is it?

Unjust or immoral actions can ultimately have on balance positive ends. What you decide to do is a matter of your philosophy, but in most significant cases none of your choices are completely moral.

Choosing to turn 10,000 people into ‘pie’ would seem a fairly black and white case. Do you think it possible to justify? You don’t seem whole against it.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#227

Post by kantspel »

ralmidani wrote: post #69
zizek23 wrote: post #45

In a previous naive world intoxicated by dreams of global citizenry and humanism it would be easy to get sanctimonious and posture about evil. But cultural divides are real and are not going away. And these kind of events and stories simply become opportunities to target other countries weaknesses, reassert a jingoistic sense of superiority and perpetuate existing comfort zones. Or there would be protests daily in we…

> Or there would be protests daily in western capitals about the sheer unimaginable scale of destruction, devastation and millions of families destroyed and lives lost in the middle east starting from Iraq to Libya and now Syria done purely to further geo-political and financial interests. My parents and wife were born in Syria. I lived and studied there for 5 years, and spent some time in then-liberated Eastern Alep…

erm Assad is actually good for Syria.

Assad has popular support of the people in Syria. He's been defeating ISIS. Why would you want to oust him?

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#228

Post by ralmidani »

weerd wrote: post #165
ralmidani wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or there would be protests daily in western capitals about the sheer unimaginable scale of destruction, devastation and millions of families destroyed and lives lost in the middle east starting from Iraq to Libya and now Syria done purely to further geo-political and financial interests. My parents and wife were born in Syria. I lived and studied there for 5 years, and spent some time in then-liberated Eastern Alep…

How was Obama supposed to follow through? How was the US in the way? Sorry for derailing the thread here, but this is interesting.

Some examples:

-Obama said, on multiple occassions, that Assad using chemical weapons would be a "red line". Assad crossed it. Obama did not strike Assad.

-Syrians asked repeatedly for a no-fly zone like that imposed against Gaddafi, to prevent Assad from pulverizing residential neighborhoods. Obama refused.

-Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and Turkey wanted to send serious weapons to those struggling against Assad. Obama essentially vetoed any such steps.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#229

Post by erikpukinskis »

osdiab wrote: post #213
lostlogin wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the ends justify the means > lots of morally reprehensible stuff that cannot be excused. Which is it?

Unjust or immoral actions can ultimately have on balance positive ends. What you decide to do is a matter of your philosophy, but in most significant cases none of your choices are completely moral.

In what sense is you saying “the ends justify the means” not “excusing” the means?

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#230

Post by DonHopkins »

oldandtired wrote: post #207

Let us not forget that all countries today face major problems politically. The world is being polarised in multiple ways and those countries that at one time had the appearance of moral superiority have fallen to the same levels as those they oppose. Totalitarianism comes in may forms. Countries such as China and Russia have specific characteristics that US, Britain, Germany, Canada, Australia, etc, etc, etc are try…

Jingoism as in "Make America Great Again"?
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