Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents • Hacker News Board

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#191

Post by totalZero » Sat, Dec 23, 2017, 7:44 PM UTC

yongjik wrote: post #173

mutteraloo wrote: post #35

Lest we forget, this is still the same government that mowed down 10,000 innocent lives, that still runs China today. They've gotten better at hiding behind marketing, propaganda, and strong arming other countries, but they're still ruled by a small, powerful group of elders that control every aspects of Chinese people's lives. It's sad that we keep feeding this dangerous psychopath which threatens democracy and free…

I object to this line of thoughts. I hope I don't sound like a China apologist: the Chinese government has done a terrible crime, and it's a shame that not enough Chinese people are demanding justice, and sooner or later they will have to look back and recognize what happened, hopefully sooner rather than later. However, packaging that as "the threat of China" is a self-serving narrative that will harm people. I gues…

> as a South Korean, America having such an opinion basically means my country is forced to "choose side", hurting our economy and destabilizing military balance in East Asia.

What the heck are you talking about? South Korea has already chosen a side. Your country runs military exercises jointly with the USA and Japan.

Americans spilled blood and gave their lives to defend South Korea after North Korea (backed by China and Soviet Russia) invaded on 6/25/1950. The US sent hundreds of thousands of troops to defend South Korea, and currently has 30k troops stationed in South Korea. Our two countries have agreed that the USA would take military command if war were to break out.

There are extreme human rights abuses and health deficiencies on the north side of the 38th Parallel, but the south side has grown to be economically powerful and extremely prosperous despite being a fairly poor country at the outset of the war. Your country and mine maintain a free trade agreement, and have traded 100 billion dollars worth of goods this year.

I personally bought a Samsung phone and a Samsung TV, so I'm about $3k of that.

Don't forget who your friends are!

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#192

Post by totalZero » Sat, Dec 23, 2017, 7:49 PM UTC

yongjik wrote: post #180

mutteraloo wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you do realize that China is the only reason North Korea is still operating, right? The North Korea that threatens your home country and brutalizes many of your relatives in North Korea?

You do realize North Korea "not operating" means either a civil war between military factions with access to nuclear weapons, or South Korean/American forces dragged into a military operation right up the nose of China? So you would rather prefer that my relatives die in fire? See, this is what I mean when I say I object to such reasoning. People are so bold, they're always willing to sacrifice other people's lives t…

> People are so bold, they're always willing to sacrifice other people's lives to defend freedom.

South Korea's forces had lost 70,000 men in five days before the USA came to your aid in 1950. In the fighting that ensued, 37,000 Americans perished to defend your country. Please consider that.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#193

Post by yongjik » Sat, Dec 23, 2017, 7:50 PM UTC

dforrestwilson wrote: post #185

yongjik wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do realize North Korea "not operating" means either a civil war between military factions with access to nuclear weapons, or South Korean/American forces dragged into a military operation right up the nose of China? So you would rather prefer that my relatives die in fire? See, this is what I mean when I say I object to such reasoning. People are so bold, they're always willing to sacrifice other people's lives t…

Yet the U.S. is at risk right now, simply for supporting South Korea militarily in both past and present. Alliances are double-edged swords. I'm curious, what would be your perspective if the U.S. decided that South Korea was no longer worth defending and pulled it's troops back to Guam and Okinawa?

> what would be your perspective if the U.S. decided that South Korea was no longer worth defending ...

You mean, what if the US decided that keeping an air force base within 1000 km of Beijing isn't worth the cost?

Well, it that case, it sucks, because our national defense budget will likely have to increase a lot. But an independent country cannot outsource its defense to others forever, so South Korea should have contingency plans for such a case, or at least I hope so.

As you said, alliance goes both ways. The military ties to the US did help us tremendously in the past. But the US is not stationing thousands of soldiers out of goodwill: they're doing it because South Korea is located at a really convenient position in America's game of global dominance. I think it's mutually beneficial (for now), but if America decides it isn't, well then that's it.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#194

Post by buttcoinslol » Sat, Dec 23, 2017, 7:58 PM UTC

yorwba wrote: post #126

jbooth wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not whataboutism to point out that every great power, for thousands of years, has done that same thing. Why's it worse in this case?

It's not worse. It's just bad and it'd be better if they'd stop. The US too.

There's a lot of bad stuff that isn't going away. Global powers projecting that power in various ways is one of them. It would absolutely be better if the US/China didn't do the bad things they have done. Good luck stopping that from happening in the future, it's been happening since civilization was created.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#195

Post by ringaroundthetx » Sat, Dec 23, 2017, 8:03 PM UTC

kchoudhu wrote: post #76

greggarious wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> obsolete language >Huh? This is an oversimplification, but basically Cantonese is the main language in Hong Kong and Macau and in parts of southern China (Guangdong) that border whereas other parts of China use Mandarin. You can probably work out why someone who speaks Mandarin would call Cantonese a "dead language" in a thread about Tiananmen Square.

Oh, I understood exactly what he was getting at. I was hoping he would use the opportunity to apologize, but hey, internet.

This has hardly been educational or enlightening. Areas that border SARs maintain Cantonese which would incredibly useful for an economic advantage with Hong Kong and Macau, and SARs are not mainland China so what is there to apologize about, the word “obsolete”? Thats supposed to be hyperbole, provocative, mission accomplished

Residents of SARs are just as discontent with the mainland as anyone else who escaped before transitions

The mainland has a national language

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#196

Post by fsloth » Sat, Dec 23, 2017, 8:30 PM UTC

mutteraloo wrote: post #35

Lest we forget, this is still the same government that mowed down 10,000 innocent lives, that still runs China today. They've gotten better at hiding behind marketing, propaganda, and strong arming other countries, but they're still ruled by a small, powerful group of elders that control every aspects of Chinese people's lives. It's sad that we keep feeding this dangerous psychopath which threatens democracy and free…

That's how china has been ruled for thousands of years.

You can't directly implant process X from culture A to culture B. The checks and balances and social norms between different cultures are different. You can implant an industrial process, if you educate a workforce, i.e. transform culture B to A onsite. Changing the culture of an entire civilization is considerably more difficult.

That's not to say I don't like democracy or markets. But a country does not become a western democracy by having an election an privatizing everything.

Labeling china as bad guys trivializes several aspects of differences between cultures. I'm not sure there are any good guys in global politics, so I'm not sure how the labels good or bad should be applied.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#197

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Dec 23, 2017, 8:39 PM UTC

fsloth wrote: post #196

mutteraloo wrote: post #35

Lest we forget, this is still the same government that mowed down 10,000 innocent lives, that still runs China today. They've gotten better at hiding behind marketing, propaganda, and strong arming other countries, but they're still ruled by a small, powerful group of elders that control every aspects of Chinese people's lives. It's sad that we keep feeding this dangerous psychopath which threatens democracy and free…

That's how china has been ruled for thousands of years. You can't directly implant process X from culture A to culture B. The checks and balances and social norms between different cultures are different. You can implant an industrial process, if you educate a workforce, i.e. transform culture B to A onsite. Changing the culture of an entire civilization is considerably more difficult. That's not to say I don't like…

[deleted]

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#198

Post by cgmg » Sat, Dec 23, 2017, 8:42 PM UTC

fsloth wrote: post #196

mutteraloo wrote: post #35

Lest we forget, this is still the same government that mowed down 10,000 innocent lives, that still runs China today. They've gotten better at hiding behind marketing, propaganda, and strong arming other countries, but they're still ruled by a small, powerful group of elders that control every aspects of Chinese people's lives. It's sad that we keep feeding this dangerous psychopath which threatens democracy and free…

That's how china has been ruled for thousands of years. You can't directly implant process X from culture A to culture B. The checks and balances and social norms between different cultures are different. You can implant an industrial process, if you educate a workforce, i.e. transform culture B to A onsite. Changing the culture of an entire civilization is considerably more difficult. That's not to say I don't like…

I think the point about 'culture' is over-stated.

Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan have a similar culture yet became liberal democracies.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#199

Post by cgmg » Sat, Dec 23, 2017, 9:08 PM UTC

osdiab wrote: post #82

mutteraloo wrote: post #35

Lest we forget, this is still the same government that mowed down 10,000 innocent lives, that still runs China today. They've gotten better at hiding behind marketing, propaganda, and strong arming other countries, but they're still ruled by a small, powerful group of elders that control every aspects of Chinese people's lives. It's sad that we keep feeding this dangerous psychopath which threatens democracy and free…

I’m not Chinese, but I did live there for a bit. If you haven’t already I suggest you take the time to get acquainted with Chinese culture, modern history, and modern Chinese lifestyle. In recent times there have been significant human tragedies there for sure, but given the historical context they feared to relive, and the incredible gains they’ve made in recent years, you can think of their actions as real large sc…

> you can think of their actions as real large scale cases of “the ends justify the means” and “putting the greater good ahead of the individual.”

I'm curious. What makes you think the Party's actions were anything but a selfish attempt to maintain control over society, like any other authoritarian government?

> our frankly ineffective and destructive forms of Western democracy

What do you mean by this, and what alternative do you propose?

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#200

Post by CamperBob2 » Sat, Dec 23, 2017, 9:18 PM UTC

yongjik wrote: post #173

mutteraloo wrote: post #35

Lest we forget, this is still the same government that mowed down 10,000 innocent lives, that still runs China today. They've gotten better at hiding behind marketing, propaganda, and strong arming other countries, but they're still ruled by a small, powerful group of elders that control every aspects of Chinese people's lives. It's sad that we keep feeding this dangerous psychopath which threatens democracy and free…

I object to this line of thoughts. I hope I don't sound like a China apologist: the Chinese government has done a terrible crime, and it's a shame that not enough Chinese people are demanding justice, and sooner or later they will have to look back and recognize what happened, hopefully sooner rather than later. However, packaging that as "the threat of China" is a self-serving narrative that will harm people. I gues…

More personally, as a South Korean, America having such an opinion basically means my country is forced to "choose side"

China could make the the whole problem go away by withdrawing their support of Kim.

And remember that if it weren't for us, the entire peninsula would be "North Korea." Including your own home.

You're welcome.