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Proofs of Useful Work [pdf]

eprint.iacr.org

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Re: Proofs of Useful Work [pdf]

#11

Post by web007 »

Taek wrote: post #3

Useful work is not actually a good foundation for securing a decentralized cryptocurrency. The value of PoW in cryptocurrency is that I know for a fact that you have to burn $X million dollars if you want to double-spend my cryptocurrency. That has to be burned in electricity, and that burn can't be used for anything else. It's expensive for you to attack me. If suddenly we've got useful works, such that you can appl…

I think you're arguing the wrong way around.

Useful PoW is totally fine for a cryptocurrency the same way useless PoW is - you have to solve a particular instance of some kind of problem, not just "computation that you were going to do already". I think Primecoin is a good example: the general problem that's being solved for mining happens to have a useful byproduct, but you still have to provide PoW on the particular instance that is on the chain.

Even Bitcoin has provided useful work for a very weak definition: it has created incentives for MASSIVE research and development in cracking or otherwise breaking SHA-256. I don't know where I could find data, but I would bet that there's an inflection point in "crack speed" around 2009, and that further progress probably correlates pretty well with the USD-BTC exchange rate.

Re: Proofs of Useful Work [pdf]

#12

Post by eat_veggies »

voidmain wrote: post #4
Taek wrote: post #3

Useful work is not actually a good foundation for securing a decentralized cryptocurrency. The value of PoW in cryptocurrency is that I know for a fact that you have to burn $X million dollars if you want to double-spend my cryptocurrency. That has to be burned in electricity, and that burn can't be used for anything else. It's expensive for you to attack me. If suddenly we've got useful works, such that you can appl…

The ideal would be useful work that is a public good - no one can profit from it individually (other than by using it as a PoW), but the world benefits from it in some way.

Gridcoin [1] has been a thing for a while and you mine coins by participating in BOINC [2] projects like SETI@home.

[1] http://www.gridcoin.us/

[2] https://boinc.berkeley.edu/

Re: Proofs of Useful Work [pdf]

#13

Post by nosuchthingtm »

web007 wrote: post #11
Taek wrote: post #3

Useful work is not actually a good foundation for securing a decentralized cryptocurrency. The value of PoW in cryptocurrency is that I know for a fact that you have to burn $X million dollars if you want to double-spend my cryptocurrency. That has to be burned in electricity, and that burn can't be used for anything else. It's expensive for you to attack me. If suddenly we've got useful works, such that you can appl…

I think you're arguing the wrong way around. Useful PoW is totally fine for a cryptocurrency the same way useless PoW is - you have to solve a particular instance of some kind of problem, not just "computation that you were going to do already". I think Primecoin is a good example: the general problem that's being solved for mining happens to have a useful byproduct, but you still have to provide PoW on the particula…

Consider a situation in which the US government realises that primecoin's output is crucial to further quantum computer research. They pump 100s of billions into mining primecoin. Now, 99.9999% of hashpower and full nodes belong to the US government - an entity whose only interest in primecoin is as a minor return on some work to reduce costs.

In this case, every assumption of trustlessness and censorship resistance has gone out the window.

A consensus algorithm using proof of useful work will become a market of miners for whom the mining rewards and thus the integrity of the network are merely a secondary concern.

Re: Proofs of Useful Work [pdf]

#14

Post by 0wing »

richdougherty wrote: post #6
voidmain wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ideal would be useful work that is a public good - no one can profit from it individually (other than by using it as a PoW), but the world benefits from it in some way.

That's a really interesting thought. Would you consider public information (e.g. the result of a mining computation) to already be a public good? E.g. see discussion of information goods here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_good#Challenges_in_iden...

Satoshi style PoW algorithms are intended to waste as much energy as possible.

PoW mining just raises the capital cost to control the network without ever improving the speed or functionality. It's a system that increases the waste as time progresses.

Re: Proofs of Useful Work [pdf]

#17

Post by etaioinshrdlu »

Here's a little writeup of how I could imagine mathematical proofs as a useful proof-of-work: https://pastebin.com/raw/ZAys0mYp

Note that it's more of a market for mathematical proofs, not a replacement for proof of work in a currency that needs a new block every 10 minutes.

Still, "miners" (theorem provers) get rewarded for their efforts with tokens.

My mathematician friends say such a genericized proof market should be possible using Model Theory.

Re: Proofs of Useful Work [pdf]

#18

Post by tlrobinson »

web007 wrote: post #11
Taek wrote: post #3

Useful work is not actually a good foundation for securing a decentralized cryptocurrency. The value of PoW in cryptocurrency is that I know for a fact that you have to burn $X million dollars if you want to double-spend my cryptocurrency. That has to be burned in electricity, and that burn can't be used for anything else. It's expensive for you to attack me. If suddenly we've got useful works, such that you can appl…

I think you're arguing the wrong way around. Useful PoW is totally fine for a cryptocurrency the same way useless PoW is - you have to solve a particular instance of some kind of problem, not just "computation that you were going to do already". I think Primecoin is a good example: the general problem that's being solved for mining happens to have a useful byproduct, but you still have to provide PoW on the particula…

> Even Bitcoin has provided useful work for a very weak definition: it has created incentives for MASSIVE research and development in cracking or otherwise breaking SHA-256

And chip performance in general. It wouldn't surprise me if Bitcoin ASICs nudge the state of the art in chip design and fabrication forward.

Another (very marginally) useful bit of work mining does: converting electricity to heat.

I doubt many miners are currently using the heat, but it seems inevitable that eventually most miners would be located in areas where 1) electricity is very cheap, and 2) the heat produced by mining can be used productively

Re: Proofs of Useful Work [pdf]

#19

Post by microtherion »

kurthr wrote: post #10
voidmain wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ideal would be useful work that is a public good - no one can profit from it individually (other than by using it as a PoW), but the world benefits from it in some way.

Like Protein folding, Search for ExtraTerestrials, Asteroids, etc... there are a lot of them, some of which structured properly could provide public benefit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_distributed_computing_...

I'd like to suggest "AlienCoin": Proof of work consists of processing SETI@Home blocks, and mining rewards are paid out to whoever finds an alien civilization.

Re: Proofs of Useful Work [pdf]

#20

Post by nickpsecurity »

VMG wrote: post #8
voidmain wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ideal would be useful work that is a public good - no one can profit from it individually (other than by using it as a PoW), but the world benefits from it in some way.

There is a market for public good: charities

You and I were thinking on similar lines. Since it's tech, my idea was the money went to FOSS nonprofits that focus on infrastructure like OS's, servers, crypto libraries, and so on. Even the GetRichCoin types building on that kind of foundation might do some incidental good for tech scene even if their plans don't work out.
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