What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway? • Hacker News Board

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#131

Post by Spooky23 » Fri, Dec 22, 2017, 8:59 PM UTC

spike021 wrote: post #40

I find this situation incredibly interesting as an outsider. I live in the SF Bay Area where we have a Muni "subway", if you can even call it reminiscent of one and BART. They're both absolutely awful, between not having good/expansive coverage/timely service. A plethora of issues plague both. Both times I visited NYC this year I took the subway everywhere. Out of probably 40-50 subway rides, only a handful were dela…

Some lines are highly delayed and more congested. I ride a few different lines a few times a month when I do business in the city and Queens. It’s definately not as good as it was at its peak, but isn’t that awful either.

Growing up in the 80s, it was dramatically more congested, slower and generally awful. So the tales of impending doom sound like drama to me.

NY politics are a carnival atmosphere right now, even by NY standards. I think these issues are getting more play as a result. It will only get worse as hostile federal policy sucks money out of Nee York.

It’s always easier to build than maintain. This happens in all institutional settings. Stuff will get worse, bonds will get paid off, and more capital dollars will be available to rebuild.

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#132

Post by stragulus » Fri, Dec 22, 2017, 9:00 PM UTC

samsonradu wrote: post #119

spike021 wrote: post #40

I find this situation incredibly interesting as an outsider. I live in the SF Bay Area where we have a Muni "subway", if you can even call it reminiscent of one and BART. They're both absolutely awful, between not having good/expansive coverage/timely service. A plethora of issues plague both. Both times I visited NYC this year I took the subway everywhere. Out of probably 40-50 subway rides, only a handful were dela…

As a non-US tourist I find the NYC subway dirty (there was trash on the lines that nobody picked up in weeks), and terribly undocumented (few or misplaced info panels and directions). It’s also very crowded at peak hours but that’s understandable I assume.

As a EU import, I understand. Actually, most of the city is quite dirty, relatively. It's probably even a US issue. Non-rich neighborhoods simply don't get to spend much on anything serving the public, including upkeep. This goes for much of NYC as well, despite it being a 'rich' city.

The information on schedules and changes due to maintenance are overwhelming for a tourist. At nights and in weekends especially, there are often trains being rerouted in very creative ways. Though all of this information is posted, it's often hard to understand for a non-local. It often mentions station names, which mean nothing to you if you don't live here (and even if you do it's not always obvious). Luckily the locals are always happy to help you with directions, contrary to popular belief, so just ask away!

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#133

Post by stragulus » Fri, Dec 22, 2017, 9:04 PM UTC

ng12 wrote: post #58

spike021 wrote: post #40

I find this situation incredibly interesting as an outsider. I live in the SF Bay Area where we have a Muni "subway", if you can even call it reminiscent of one and BART. They're both absolutely awful, between not having good/expansive coverage/timely service. A plethora of issues plague both. Both times I visited NYC this year I took the subway everywhere. Out of probably 40-50 subway rides, only a handful were dela…

Depends on where you live -- going through a tunnel or over a bridge adds significantly to the odds of encountering delays. Even if you live near one of the first few stops in Queens or Brooklyn you're dealing with disproportionally higher average travel time.

Yup. Any delay in Manhattan during rush hour, and the trains just pile up waiting to get into Manhattan in the outer boroughs. And in the outer boroughs, you often don't have the luxury of being able to choose from multiple lines. So all in all this means that your morning commute could last anywhere from X ('scheduled' commute time) to X + 45 minutes, occasionally even worse. And you'll probably be packed like sardines inside the cars as well, hopefully with a working AC if it's not freezing outside.

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#134

Post by rockarage » Fri, Dec 22, 2017, 9:06 PM UTC

esmi wrote: post #114

As non-NYC resident the first thing I though was, "Huh, I wonder what's wrong with New York's subways?" But alas they went straight into solutions so I am still left to wonder what problems they are trying to fix and in what priority. Pretty webpage though.

Maybe you should try reading the article?

from the article:

"Many stations like this one are not prepared to accommodate a larger volume of passengers, even if a new traffic control system allowed trains to come more frequently."

"Much of the subway’s signal system uses antiquated parts like the electromechanical relays shown above from the West Fourth Street-Washington Square station in Manhattan.

Train traffic for about two-thirds of the subway system is monitored in rooms like the one shown below at West Fourth Street. Little has changed in a century.

The old signal system uses a network of switches and cables along the track to keep trains a safe distance apart. The technology is outdated and expensive to maintain."

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#135

Post by stragulus » Fri, Dec 22, 2017, 9:10 PM UTC

dionidium wrote: post #128

spike021 wrote: post #40

I find this situation incredibly interesting as an outsider. I live in the SF Bay Area where we have a Muni "subway", if you can even call it reminiscent of one and BART. They're both absolutely awful, between not having good/expansive coverage/timely service. A plethora of issues plague both. Both times I visited NYC this year I took the subway everywhere. Out of probably 40-50 subway rides, only a handful were dela…

I moved to NYC a year ago and have the same basic feeling as you. Could the subway be improved? Obviously! But New Yorkers don't realize how good they have it compared to the rest of the U.S. [0] If a train takes 10 minutes, they're annoyed. Meanwhile, scheduled headways of 20 minutes are the norm where I'm from -- on the one light rail line that goes through the center of town. My daily experience on the NYC Subway…

I think many New Yorkers realize how bad it is in the rest of the US. HOWEVER! In NYC, the subway is essential, and many people don't realistically have any other option. Especially if you're in the outer boroughs. Even worse, there you also don't have the luxury of walking over to another line if yours is heavily delayed. Walking is too far, and biking is only recently slowly becoming a reasonable alternative.

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#136

Post by echlebek » Fri, Dec 22, 2017, 9:11 PM UTC

woolvalley wrote: post #126

danudey wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conversely: tons of people here in Vancouver complain about our equivalent systems (the Skytrain, usually), whereas people I know who've visited from New York are blown away by how clean, fast, and efficient it is. Trains that come every 90 seconds, no garbage on the tracks, bright, open, airy stations (most are above ground on that line). NYC is a model of public transit from the perspective of ubiquity, feasibility…

Isn't the problem with vancouver's system the lack of coverage? And overcrowding during rush hour?

Yes. The coverage is quite poor and doesn't service certain high traffic areas at all, like UBC. The solution has been to increase bus coverage which can only take you so far.

The trains are very popular, and during rush hour there might not be enough room on the train for everyone to get on.

The trains come every 3 minutes during peak hours, and less often during non-peak hours, as much as 15 minutes.

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#137

Post by dionidium » Fri, Dec 22, 2017, 9:24 PM UTC

stragulus wrote: post #135

dionidium wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I moved to NYC a year ago and have the same basic feeling as you. Could the subway be improved? Obviously! But New Yorkers don't realize how good they have it compared to the rest of the U.S. [0] If a train takes 10 minutes, they're annoyed. Meanwhile, scheduled headways of 20 minutes are the norm where I'm from -- on the one light rail line that goes through the center of town. My daily experience on the NYC Subway…

I think many New Yorkers realize how bad it is in the rest of the US. HOWEVER! In NYC, the subway is essential, and many people don't realistically have any other option. Especially if you're in the outer boroughs. Even worse, there you also don't have the luxury of walking over to another line if yours is heavily delayed. Walking is too far, and biking is only recently slowly becoming a reasonable alternative.

There are people in every city who don’t have any other option. What those people do in places like St. Louis is transfer between multiple buses on much worse commutes than the ones you’re imagining on a packed 7-train.

I think what’s actually different, if we’re honest, is that middle class people have arranged their lives to rely on the train in NYC, and they’re a more vocal (or at least more likely to be heard) constituency.

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#138

Post by waqf » Fri, Dec 22, 2017, 9:57 PM UTC

dionidium wrote: post #137

stragulus wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think many New Yorkers realize how bad it is in the rest of the US. HOWEVER! In NYC, the subway is essential, and many people don't realistically have any other option. Especially if you're in the outer boroughs. Even worse, there you also don't have the luxury of walking over to another line if yours is heavily delayed. Walking is too far, and biking is only recently slowly becoming a reasonable alternative.

There are people in every city who don’t have any other option. What those people do in places like St. Louis is transfer between multiple buses on much worse commutes than the ones you’re imagining on a packed 7-train. I think what’s actually different, if we’re honest, is that middle class people have arranged their lives to rely on the train in NYC, and they’re a more vocal (or at least more likely to be heard) co…

Sure, but that's another way of saying the same thing. Because by "no realistic option" GP means, in effect, "no option that middle class people would stand for".

If you build a transportation infrastructure that's good enough for middle class people to rely on then middle class people will come to rely on it, and if you don't then they won't.

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#139

Post by dionidium » Fri, Dec 22, 2017, 10:09 PM UTC

waqf wrote: post #138

dionidium wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are people in every city who don’t have any other option. What those people do in places like St. Louis is transfer between multiple buses on much worse commutes than the ones you’re imagining on a packed 7-train. I think what’s actually different, if we’re honest, is that middle class people have arranged their lives to rely on the train in NYC, and they’re a more vocal (or at least more likely to be heard) co…

Sure, but that's another way of saying the same thing. Because by "no realistic option" GP means, in effect, "no option that middle class people would stand for". If you build a transportation infrastructure that's good enough for middle class people to rely on then middle class people will come to rely on it, and if you don't then they won't.

No argument with that. It’s good that the residents of New York are holding their representatives to account. It’s also simultaneously true that wild hyperbole about NYC not having adequate transit to support HQ2 is just that.

I’m making the pretty boring argument that we shouldn’t get carried away.

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#140

Post by esmi » Fri, Dec 22, 2017, 10:18 PM UTC

rockarage wrote: post #134

esmi wrote: post #114

As non-NYC resident the first thing I though was, "Huh, I wonder what's wrong with New York's subways?" But alas they went straight into solutions so I am still left to wonder what problems they are trying to fix and in what priority. Pretty webpage though.

Maybe you should try reading the article? from the article: "Many stations like this one are not prepared to accommodate a larger volume of passengers, even if a new traffic control system allowed trains to come more frequently." "Much of the subway’s signal system uses antiquated parts like the electromechanical relays shown above from the West Fourth Street-Washington Square station in Manhattan. Train traffic for…

You are right. The article only claimed to provide a list of expert suggestions on how to fix the New York subway and it did that. I'm the one who wants it to be more.

It strikes a chord because the suggestions offered feel like so many tech roadmap planning meetings I've been in where the technology itself is the end and not a means to an end. Without the greater context I am not sure how anyone can evaluate the suggestions to try and predict whether or not they will accomplish the stated goal.

Assume the hallways were widened, all the relays, monitoring rooms and signals were updated addressing each quote you provided. Is New York's subway fixed now? Maybe it's better for some definitions of better but I digress...