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On the Darknet, Reputation Is Everything

nautil.us

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Re: On the Darknet, Reputation Is Everything

#41

Post by TeMPOraL »

auggierose wrote: post #23
sillysaurus3 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one argument against capitalism as a whole, and it's worth taking seriously. Capitalism is still the best tool we have, but it's not without downsides. Example: open source is the communist model, and it works very well. To each according to their need, from each according to their ability. No one owns anything, and you're free to fork or vote with your feet. Ditto for illegal drug markets. If you're unhappy…

Unhappy = Dead might be an explanation for that.

In places with an established drug scene I'd expect that unhappy customer == dead dealer, because other parties will work to protect their commons (reputation of the market) against random defectors looking for quick buck.

Re: On the Darknet, Reputation Is Everything

#42

Post by Sangermaine »

duozerk wrote: post #28
md224 wrote: post #20

I think it's a really positive thing that people are able to leave reviews for drug purchases. In the absence of FDA regulation, a public reputation system incentivizes dealers to avoid harming their customers with dangerously-adulterated products. In the midst of an opioid crisis, with people overdosing on heroin cut with fentanyl, having this accountability can save lives. There's a subreddit (whose name I won't me…

Not only that, but some of those markets (mostly defunct ones by now though, and only a minority) hired "official" doctors to answer questions from the users on drug use or similar. You also have communities (like the "DNM avengers" one) that will freely and anonymously test the products of some vendors to confirm whether or not what they are selling is in fact the product described, and how pure it is. Some vendors…

How would the end buyer know if the tests were genuine? The vendors could easily be paying for good results since there’s zero transparency or ability to check.

Re: On the Darknet, Reputation Is Everything

#43

Post by nugi »

Sangermaine wrote: post #42
duozerk wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only that, but some of those markets (mostly defunct ones by now though, and only a minority) hired "official" doctors to answer questions from the users on drug use or similar. You also have communities (like the "DNM avengers" one) that will freely and anonymously test the products of some vendors to confirm whether or not what they are selling is in fact the product described, and how pure it is. Some vendors…

How would the end buyer know if the tests were genuine? The vendors could easily be paying for good results since there’s zero transparency or ability to check.

I think that just points back to reputation again.

Re: On the Darknet, Reputation Is Everything

#44

Post by nugi »

rosser wrote: post #39
criloz2 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how open source is a communist model, nobody is coerced to publish their code, they do because they want to, even several companies are making some of their source code public for improving the trust that their client has in their product and increase their sales.

"Communism" — the leading capital due to its being the first word in the sentence — is an economic model . "Communism", the Soviet-style phenomenon is not "communism", either in principle, or in practice. Yet we insist on conflating them, and argue against the one whenever the other is mentioned, as if it's synonymous with both.

The problem with both is the same. The benefits are only derived if everyone follows the system, but human nature dictates that will not be the case. The problem is with the nature of what is voluntary. Most homeowners in a non communist country, presumably don't want to leave their home, or join a commune. When you determine everyone MUST participate, the distinction you make evaporates.

Re: On the Darknet, Reputation Is Everything

#45

Post by duozerk »

Sangermaine wrote: post #42
duozerk wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only that, but some of those markets (mostly defunct ones by now though, and only a minority) hired "official" doctors to answer questions from the users on drug use or similar. You also have communities (like the "DNM avengers" one) that will freely and anonymously test the products of some vendors to confirm whether or not what they are selling is in fact the product described, and how pure it is. Some vendors…

How would the end buyer know if the tests were genuine? The vendors could easily be paying for good results since there’s zero transparency or ability to check.

Absolutely. For those testing communities too, reputation / track record is everything. And since a lot (but, sadly, still a minority) of customers will also reagent the product themselves - a lot of them in countries, especially in the EU, where such a test is free and anonymous thanks to non-profits or even in some case government backed services - any divergence is in theory quick to appear and would cast doubt on their reputation. But that's only the theory, and as you say it's far from a perfect system.

The community I mentioned (I don't know if it's still active) used to ask vendors for samples to test; but also ordered product from those same vendors (and others) as "fake" customers in order to make sure the product actually being sold is the one they tested. They also had donation runs with the community at large (both to pay for the tested products and to remunerate themselves).

Re: On the Darknet, Reputation Is Everything

#46

Post by rosser »

nugi wrote: post #44
rosser wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Communism" — the leading capital due to its being the first word in the sentence — is an economic model . "Communism", the Soviet-style phenomenon is not "communism", either in principle, or in practice. Yet we insist on conflating them, and argue against the one whenever the other is mentioned, as if it's synonymous with both.

The problem with both is the same. The benefits are only derived if everyone follows the system, but human nature dictates that will not be the case. The problem is with the nature of what is voluntary. Most homeowners in a non communist country, presumably don't want to leave their home, or join a commune. When you determine everyone MUST participate, the distinction you make evaporates.

...because it's so voluntary to participate in western capitalism?

EDIT: Point being, the economic milieu one finds one's self in, is that in which one tends to be obligated to participate — especially at the lower levels of power within that model.

That is: regular folk are trapped in the system they're born into. It is not meaningful to call their participation voluntary on their part. They may have nominally more freedom within the model in capitalism, but they're, on the whole, just as obligated to participate; they are just as much grist for the mill, under either model.

Re: On the Darknet, Reputation Is Everything

#47

Post by 15155 »

Xeoncross wrote: post #12
joshvm wrote: post #6

It is somewhat amusing that the cocaine in the stock photo costs 0.13BTC at a price of $27. I know people who have bought weed for the equivalent of hundreds of thousands of dollars in today's bitcoin (even post crash). The comment about eBay is interesting - that negative feedback is scarce because people don't bother if they're unhappy. I think one aspect is that it's more difficult to leave a negative review, and…

TL;DR Seller did wrong and it cost _me_ reputation. I left a neutral feedback one time because of a legitimate seller problem, but otherwise things were fine. The feedback didn't affect his seller score. The seller left negative retaliation feedback and then offered to have us both unpublished (or something) the feedback so that it didn't affect my reputation. I learned you don't ever leave negative feedback on ebay.

Sellers can no longer leave negative feedback for buyers for this exact reason, for better or worse.

Now, they'll just buy one of your (cheap) items and leave negative feedback as a buyer if they can.

Don't sell and buy on the same account.

Re: On the Darknet, Reputation Is Everything

#48

Post by nugi »

totallynotcool wrote: post #21
iamthirsty wrote: post #2

So...just like real life drug/arms dealers? Shocking.

I think the main take away is, "trustworthiness [consist of] competence, reliability, and honesty" and how these markets/vendors/customers create it; by satisfying all the above.

Im sure you could start a whole school of just reminding people of those simple statements.

Re: On the Darknet, Reputation Is Everything

#49

Post by 15155 »

rz2k wrote: post #22
Xeoncross wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TL;DR Seller did wrong and it cost _me_ reputation. I left a neutral feedback one time because of a legitimate seller problem, but otherwise things were fine. The feedback didn't affect his seller score. The seller left negative retaliation feedback and then offered to have us both unpublished (or something) the feedback so that it didn't affect my reputation. I learned you don't ever leave negative feedback on ebay.

I wish you could have personal blacklists of sellers so they don't appear in your own search results. Many years ago I avoided leaving negative feedback on a seller that agreeably accepted a return on stuff that was obviously counterfeit. A couple years later I felt like an idiot when I received garbage again, then realized that it was the same seller that had tried to quietly scam me before.

> Many years ago I avoided leaving negative feedback on a seller that agreeably accepted a return on stuff that was obviously counterfeit.

I would've never sent it back. Explain this situation to your credit card company.

If it isn't illegal by statute to send counterfeit goods, it's certainly against policy. All financial institutions have policies against moving these goods around if you can prove to some very low standard that the goods are counterfeit (take a handbag to a Macy's and have the counter clerk tell you it's counterfeit.)

Re: On the Darknet, Reputation Is Everything

#50

Post by joe_the_user »

md224 wrote: post #20

I think it's a really positive thing that people are able to leave reviews for drug purchases. In the absence of FDA regulation, a public reputation system incentivizes dealers to avoid harming their customers with dangerously-adulterated products. In the midst of an opioid crisis, with people overdosing on heroin cut with fentanyl, having this accountability can save lives. There's a subreddit (whose name I won't me…

Drug dealing is commerce that happens to be illegal. It's completely logical that most of the considerations of an ordinary market apply here. Drugs are a "victimless crime" in the technical sense that if all goes as planned, none of the people involved would have any complaint afterwards.

The thing is, the article doesn't mention the market for less victim-less crimes. It seems like a market for "murder for hire" would be a bit less reliable than a market for drugs - which is a relatively good thing.

Even more, those aiming to illegalize drugs inherently are aiming to make markets not function for drugs - aiming to make the experience more dangerous and costly than it would be otherwise. The most hardcore drug-warriors are open on this question but others try to sugarcoat it.

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