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Technical feasibility of regulating public Blockchain explored

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Re: Technical feasibility of regulating public Blockchain explored

#41
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> manipulation by government for political or plain self-interest reasons counts as compromising Some countries, e.g. the Cayman Islands or Zimbabwe, peg (or have pegged) their currency to a foreign currency [1]. There has also been discussion of rule-based monetary policy [2], where central bankers' discretion is limited. A blockchain would be a stricter form of both, amplifying their benefits as well as downsides.…

The Federal Reserve acts algorithmically. New money is only created when new loans are requested by big commercial banks, and those loans are demanded on behalf of retail loans, which are initiated in proportion with economic activity by economic actors. The only discretion involved is the interest rates on those loans, which indirectly controls people’s willingness to take out loans.

> The Federal Reserve acts algorithmically .. only discretion involved is the interest rates

I built a self driving car. The only human discretion is the steering wheel.

Re: Technical feasibility of regulating public Blockchain explored

#42
Imagine for a second that the US Congress, Senate, and President all voted to make usage of current cryptocurrencies totally illegal.

Would it even be possible for them to stop people from using current anonymous cryptocurrencies and technologies like Blockchain?

I.e. if US citizens decided to ignore the ban on cryptocurrency usage, would they still be able to trade and use them without being identified by the government, and with no interruption of service (e.g. US Gov takes down enough blockchain nodes to cause service black out)?

Re: Technical feasibility of regulating public Blockchain explored

#43

I believe there is an elegant way for regulation. Regulation authorities just have to "taint" the coins according to some rules and publish the result. For example they say which coins are clean and which are dirty and define a rule that upon a transaction you must first spend away your clean coins (the clean and dirty coins sets are updated by watching the blockchain). By creating such an overlay currency over an ex…

Other than people not being able to use all coins in their possession, how does tainting coins achieve "an elegant way for regulation"?

Re: Technical feasibility of regulating public Blockchain explored

#44
post #20

The regulatory nodes seem to have created quite a stir! I believe this stir is partly because it is being viewed as a central authority to control the blockchain. This is an incorrect understanding of the proposal. The top node of the hierarchy of regulation can be created by anyone. However, those who want to legitimately (within their jurisdictions) use blockchains to improve the experience of transfer of coins (no…

If adopting this technology is voluntary, it has nothing to do with regulation. It would simply be a superior protocol, that people choose to use. “Voluntary regulation” is an oxymoron. > Also, we must not forget that unregulated blockchains are being used as a bridge to transfer money between the legal and the illegal businesses. Nor must we forget that many countries, like Argentina, make it illegal for people to s…

Argentina doesn't make it illegal to save in currencies other than its own.

Re: Technical feasibility of regulating public Blockchain explored

#45
post #43

I believe there is an elegant way for regulation. Regulation authorities just have to "taint" the coins according to some rules and publish the result. For example they say which coins are clean and which are dirty and define a rule that upon a transaction you must first spend away your clean coins (the clean and dirty coins sets are updated by watching the blockchain). By creating such an overlay currency over an ex…

Other than people not being able to use all coins in their possession, how does tainting coins achieve "an elegant way for regulation"?

It is elegant because you don't need to force people to switch to another complex crypto-blockchain that no-one will adopt. But there is more depth to it :

As an authority, you express your policy goals via a set of rules which grants you a fine policy-making abilities, and then either the market takes you into account and self-regulate to respect your policy or they give you ground for a global ban (but most likely some people will endorse it through fear and the others will have no other choice than to follow or be the one with the "hot potato" (divide&conquer) ).

But as every good tool/technology there are always multiple facets, and it can also be used to create value :

The beauty of decorating the ledger is that it allows to tie ethic to money. For example you can define some decoration rules, which can help promote environmental practices. For example you receive green coins when you donate to wwf, or when you interact with an eco-friendly business. (green token aren't new but the fact of it being public info is)

The great strength of this is that you are no longer bounded to be a summing to zero ledger for your decorated coins.

It can also helps people to cluster and transact only with people which shares some common values. For example if you want to avoid touching drug related money, then you can choose not to.

You can also reward with some coins certain behavior, like transactions between different communities which create out of thin-air coins received by both parties. It gives you fine knobs to adjust your economy.

You can build an e-reputation system upon these.

It probably can be exploited but it's not so easy as because all the books are public it removes incentives to cheat as you risk being marked.

You can create "coins that can't be bought". It is kind of fingerprinting your economic behavior to tell society what you want it to become.

If you can convince some people to share some set of values these rainbow coins can help you smoothly go from "ignored by society" values to values which can bring you new customers.

Re: Technical feasibility of regulating public Blockchain explored

#46
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In my book, manipulation by government for political or plain self-interest reasons counts as compromising. The problem is that «manipulation» by governments as you call it, is part of its toolkit, and a lot of empirical evidences shows that the cost of doing nothing when something should have been done is orders of magnitude worse than «manipulation for political reasons». Take for instance Germany is the 1920s: t…

> Imo, people afraid of the Government and wanting to drastically limit its power are a bit like anti-vaxer I should remind you that 11 months ago, Donald Trump became the head of what's arguably the most powerful government in the world. I'm glad there are restrictions on the power of that government and very much concerned that they're not stringent enough. While I do have some sympathy for anarchist positions, I d…

100% agree with the fact that governments need limits, but I also disagree with the idea of removing all kind of monetary power from the hands of governments, it's just too helpful and achieving the same goals without it would be much more dramatic : if you think inflation is spoliation, what do you think about actually confiscating assets or properties ? In troubled times, a government will do anything necessary to keep its power and if he doesn't have access to monetary tools, things are going to be much worse, and the majority will be behind it.

People tend to think that the free market won against socialism, but it did not : welfare state won against socialism ! People being happier, they didn't want the revolution, but if a government can't buy social peace it's going to be replaced by someone who will do it. That's exactly the kind of mindset that made Trump president of the US (America first, no more globalization), and the fact that he is betraying his promises won't change the fact that a huge chunk of the population want some dramatic change (even at the expense of a lot of important things).

Re: Technical feasibility of regulating public Blockchain explored

#47
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In my book, manipulation by government for political or plain self-interest reasons counts as compromising. The problem is that «manipulation» by governments as you call it, is part of its toolkit, and a lot of empirical evidences shows that the cost of doing nothing when something should have been done is orders of magnitude worse than «manipulation for political reasons». Take for instance Germany is the 1920s: t…

I'm not going to pretend I understand the intricacies of managing a modern economy in times of crisis and I can't argue with your historic examples. There are clearly problems that would require different solutions in a decentralised-driven economy. However I think there are still a lot of things that a government could do too help its people in extreme situations, even if they were normally using a currency out of i…

> As a Greek I have experienced some of these consequences first-hand, in the form of capital controls and cross-border trading restrictions.

If the most dramatic consequences you had to face from the past decade policies, you're probably pretty affluent among the Greeks (which isn't surprising here on HN, I don't think anyone here is part of the 30% lower incomes of his country)

> I simply struggle to accept that an individual should suffer the consequences of an incompetent or malicious government in what should be a fundamental right (trading and securing your wealth)

You're free to assign the priority you want in the role of State, depending on the personal believes and values, but I personally think there are more fundamental rights than trading or securing your wealth, and I'm not shocked to see a government making trade-offs between those rights.

In normal time, all those rights should be preserved and defended, but in troubled times it, I have no problem seeing a government cutting back the free trade right in order to provide food to everyone, or education, health, safety or whatever human basic rights I feel more important than business freedom. Call me a socialist if you want.

Re: Technical feasibility of regulating public Blockchain explored

#48
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Imo, people afraid of the Government and wanting to drastically limit its power are a bit like anti-vaxer I should remind you that 11 months ago, Donald Trump became the head of what's arguably the most powerful government in the world. I'm glad there are restrictions on the power of that government and very much concerned that they're not stringent enough. While I do have some sympathy for anarchist positions, I d…

100% agree with the fact that governments need limits, but I also disagree with the idea of removing all kind of monetary power from the hands of governments, it's just too helpful and achieving the same goals without it would be much more dramatic : if you think inflation is spoliation, what do you think about actually confiscating assets or properties ? In troubled times, a government will do anything necessary to…

> but I also disagree with the idea of removing all kind of monetary power from the hands of governments

I don't have enough expertise or moral authority to say for sure whether that would be good or not. Governments fought very hard to get substantially increased monetary power during the 20th century, and the world that followed is a pretty good place. For all the bad news we hear, violence, starvation, disease and other metrics of badness are near historic lows. Some attribute those gains largely to government action, but I think a lot of the improvements were social and technological. As an example, better access to information makes people aware that those who employ violence usually don't get good results, so others are less likely to do so.

What I do feel fairly confident in saying is that for better or worse, it's fairly likely to happen. Here's the approximate scenario I see playing out:

First, a cryptocurrency becomes somewhat popular for actual use as a currency. It won't be Bitcoin. It might not even be one that exists yet, but it will happen sooner or later. It need not be universally accepted, but if you can buy groceries, fuel and a cup of coffee in most major cities on one or more continents, that will be sufficient.

Next, there needs to be a financial crisis affecting that continent. These happen every couple decades. It's a near certainty. Bonus points for runs on banks, slowness or failure of protection mechanisms like FDIC, rapid inflation or political instability.

The next step is that people start using the cryptocurrency in preference to the government currency, banks and payment cards. Of course, the government might want to prevent this, but any actual attempt at enforcing a ban would meet great resistance from the significant fraction of the population already using it.

I'm not sure what follows. I have little doubt that parts of the transition will be quite ugly. I hope the improvements the world has made survive it.

Re: Technical feasibility of regulating public Blockchain explored

#49
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not going to pretend I understand the intricacies of managing a modern economy in times of crisis and I can't argue with your historic examples. There are clearly problems that would require different solutions in a decentralised-driven economy. However I think there are still a lot of things that a government could do too help its people in extreme situations, even if they were normally using a currency out of i…

> As a Greek I have experienced some of these consequences first-hand, in the form of capital controls and cross-border trading restrictions. If the most dramatic consequences you had to face from the past decade policies, you're probably pretty affluent among the Greeks (which isn't surprising here on HN, I don't think anyone here is part of the 30% lower incomes of his country) > I simply struggle to accept that an…

> If the most dramatic consequences you had to face from the past decade policies, you're probably pretty affluent among the Greeks

I don't live in Greece any more but no, I was earning a slightly above average full-time wage -which when you don't have a family, pay rent or care to go out much might feel pretty affluent, but if you have to support a family or pay rent because you don't want to live with your parents any more, is not.

My perspective is also the perspective of many people I know in Greece that are definitely not affluent (some earning sub €800 per month):

If you're lucky to have a stable job, you are working all day long to get a half-decent wage (that over the last decade lost 40% of it's effective value through tax increases, health contribution increases towards a completely broken health system, pension contribution increases -that you literally don't trust that you will get back, inflation, etc) and can't even do whatever the fuck you want with whatever little is left of it! They are strong-arming you to keep it in banks, transact through banks -accepting their fees and inconveniences-, restrict how much cash you can withdraw or spend, even limit what you can buy! They are still blocking Greek card transactions outside the country for a series of types of business such as gambling, pornographic, jewels, works of art, auctions, etc (which of course they fail to detect properly, so you get plenty of false positives :p)

Is this the most dramatic consequence considering everything else I just mentioned? Probably not, but it's the one that constantly reminds you that you're not in control of the rewards of your own labor. And it's also the one that you can suddenly avoid for good, giving them the finger, thanks to cryptocurrencies.

> Call me a socialist if you want.

Socialist policies can work great if a government is competent and honest like perhaps in Scandinavian countries. The problem is that no-one can guarantee when and for how long a government will be like this.

Re: Technical feasibility of regulating public Blockchain explored

#50
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a Greek I have experienced some of these consequences first-hand, in the form of capital controls and cross-border trading restrictions. If the most dramatic consequences you had to face from the past decade policies, you're probably pretty affluent among the Greeks (which isn't surprising here on HN, I don't think anyone here is part of the 30% lower incomes of his country) > I simply struggle to accept that an…

> If the most dramatic consequences you had to face from the past decade policies, you're probably pretty affluent among the Greeks I don't live in Greece any more but no, I was earning a slightly above average full-time wage -which when you don't have a family, pay rent or care to go out much might feel pretty affluent, but if you have to support a family or pay rent because you don't want to live with your parents…

What's interesting in what you describe about the greek situation, is that it's exactly what one should expect when a government lose its control on the monetary policy : instead of solving the problem by just printing money (at the cost of inflation) it needs to be much more intrusive in people's life in order to deal with difficult times.
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