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What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

nytimes.com

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Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#71

Post by cmurf »

spike021 wrote: post #40

I find this situation incredibly interesting as an outsider. I live in the SF Bay Area where we have a Muni "subway", if you can even call it reminiscent of one and BART. They're both absolutely awful, between not having good/expansive coverage/timely service. A plethora of issues plague both. Both times I visited NYC this year I took the subway everywhere. Out of probably 40-50 subway rides, only a handful were dela…

Depends on time of day and the weather. Rain, rush, weekends, weekend nights - oh boy. You have to plan in advance, and be familiar with alternatives or you can really get stuck.

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#72

Post by francisofascii »

ChrisBland wrote: post #69

The more I think about our future with self driving cars/busses; I wonder at what point will subways no longer be needed? If you look at the capital cost of a new bus compared to the cost for the operator(s) who work it, we could greatly increase our fleet of bus services simply by removing the driver. If that and the cost per mile falls under $1/mile for uber and the like, I don't think we have a massive need for su…

You could be right. The key for making this work is creating more dedicated bus lanes which can then act like a small above ground train.

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#73

Post by JustAnotherPat »

spike021 wrote: post #40

I find this situation incredibly interesting as an outsider. I live in the SF Bay Area where we have a Muni "subway", if you can even call it reminiscent of one and BART. They're both absolutely awful, between not having good/expansive coverage/timely service. A plethora of issues plague both. Both times I visited NYC this year I took the subway everywhere. Out of probably 40-50 subway rides, only a handful were dela…

The problem is during rush hour.

Wasn't uncommon for me to be stuck for 45 minutes in the same spot.

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#74

Post by betterunix2 »

Spooky23 wrote: post #61
betterunix2 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remain confused about the pay figure the NYTimes gave for subway workers; I have a close relative who works in the subway and I know a number of subway workers, and none of them make anything close to that kind of salary, even counting overtime. So unless that counts something other than the hourly employees, or counts pension contributions as salary (in which case it is just an argument against pensions), I have a…

Normal government workers in NY cost about 150% of salary due to benefits and pension costs. A big part of this is that NY law requires that the pensions get funded... many states ignore pension contributions and operate at a lower cost. MTA has other unusual issues... they have a very powerful union that has negotiated wacky deals over the years. In some areas, pretty much everyone retires with dramatically more exp…

The LIRR is a separate union with a totally different retirement system:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railroad_Retirement_Act

The subway workers are represented by TWU local 100; LIRR workers are represented by 7 different unions, all separate from the subway workers.

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#75

Post by crocal »

CoolGuySteve wrote: post #9

I still don't understand why the signal system takes so long to upgrade. Can't they install most of the new system while the old one is still working on the same tracks? And isn't digital signalling available from contractors that have already done the work in other cities?

Overlaying signalling systems is a complex issue for 2 reasons. First, you have limited track and train access because the train is running at capacity. Second, you can actually create unsafe situations by combining two systems that are actually safe by themselves.

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#76

Post by crisdux »

ChrisBland wrote: post #69

The more I think about our future with self driving cars/busses; I wonder at what point will subways no longer be needed? If you look at the capital cost of a new bus compared to the cost for the operator(s) who work it, we could greatly increase our fleet of bus services simply by removing the driver. If that and the cost per mile falls under $1/mile for uber and the like, I don't think we have a massive need for su…

I tend of think along those lines as well for most sprawled cities. But I don't think that will be true of dense cities like nyc that need mass rapid transit. Even with increased capacity that AV's will allow, roads don't have the capacity to move the millions of passengers during rush hour.

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#77

Post by chimeracoder »

betterunix2 wrote: post #70
chimeracoder wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The TWU has no say over signal upgrades The TWU has immense leverage over the projects that get prioritized. In fact, of the six suggestions that the article lists for fixing the subway, the TWU has actively fought against five of them. > and the MTA has not even hired union members to install the new signal system. This is an issue that's been going on for decades . Talking about what's happening in 2017 with the…

You seem to think the TWU has power that it really does not have. The MTA has been consolidating the subway system's towers since the 1970s, closing a number of the electromechanical towers and replacing them with transistorized (and now computerized) equipment. In the 90s and 00s they had a grand plan to create a single control center for the whole system, but they hired incompetent contractors who failed to deliver…

> You seem to think the TWU has power that it really does not have. All the TWU can do is stop the MTA from eliminating jobs, they cannot stop the MTA's plans to install new equipment.

I don't think you understand how much power the TWU does have. Not only do they have the power to stop projects altogether, like automating the trains (which they did, as noted in the article), but they do have the ability to either delay or stonewall projects that they oppose by framing them as issues of labor allocation. Even if they can't unilaterally kill the project outright, they can make it expensive and painful enough that nobody will ever pursue it.

There's a symbiotic relationship between the TWU and MTA leadership (and one that's parasitic with respect to the state). Other aspects of this have already been described elsewhere in this thread and the linked article, and it's not possible to understand the way public transit infrastructure projects happen (or, more commonly, don't happen) in New York without accounting for this massive force.

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#78

Post by crocal »

ChrisBland wrote: post #69

The more I think about our future with self driving cars/busses; I wonder at what point will subways no longer be needed? If you look at the capital cost of a new bus compared to the cost for the operator(s) who work it, we could greatly increase our fleet of bus services simply by removing the driver. If that and the cost per mile falls under $1/mile for uber and the like, I don't think we have a massive need for su…

Subways will remain in dense city centers because they offer capacity that cannot be matched with buses. Driver or no driver is irrelevant. Your argument probably will hold true for regional trains and high speed trains, though. The travel time will be quite similar if you factor in the time to and from the railway stations.

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#79

Post by bluGill »

ChrisBland wrote: post #69

The more I think about our future with self driving cars/busses; I wonder at what point will subways no longer be needed? If you look at the capital cost of a new bus compared to the cost for the operator(s) who work it, we could greatly increase our fleet of bus services simply by removing the driver. If that and the cost per mile falls under $1/mile for uber and the like, I don't think we have a massive need for su…

subways are useful even with self driving cars just because they are another level. A self driving helicopter could replace a subway, but ground level cars eventually get into congestion. Of course we can build bridges, but a subway is just a train underground so that doesn't apply.

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#80

Post by niftich »

CoolGuySteve wrote: post #9

I still don't understand why the signal system takes so long to upgrade. Can't they install most of the new system while the old one is still working on the same tracks? And isn't digital signalling available from contractors that have already done the work in other cities?

Generally, all 'train control' systems take a long time to roll out. Despite often seeming like one product you 'install' from one vendor, it's really more of a 'solution' that requires a bunch of things you deploy together, and parts of it are delivered by subcontractors.

For the relatively simple system that the NYC began using -- Siemens Trainguard MT, used in some other cities, and also on PATH -- you need trackside beacons, lots of wiring (and a good amount of wireless), in-car computing units in the IT closet, in-cab signalling, on-car sensors, in-car wiring, etc [1], a bunch of IT integration and troubleshooting; not to mention "soft deliverables" like conductor training, maintenance training, dispatcher training, safety and bureaucratic approvals, and lots of testing. Even if you assume that all parties are competent and are acting in good faith, this still takes time.

In a recent thread about the Amtrak Cascades derailment [2], a conversation about (positive) train control ensued, and some people who worked on such implementations also talked about why these projects tend to be complex.

[1] http://www.mobility.siemens.com/mobility/global/SiteCollecti... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15968720

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