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What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

nytimes.com

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Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#31

Post by jcranmer »

lr4444lr wrote: post #20
randomerr wrote: post #2

New York doesn't have enough money to get it done. The politicians are too busy paying for all the election promises they've made over the last 50 years. And they absolutely need to cut the bureaucracy (code word for 'unions' and 'government agencies') that are deeply entrenched in the government. I don't think New York can do it until the people get tired of watching the decay and the current political machine gets…

Not necessarily disagreeing, but it's important to point out that fixing/upgrading the system comes from the capital budget, and the promises you're describing are paid out of the operating budget. The debt service for the former, is earmarked, by law, from the latter, which clocks in at 16% according to recent figures[0]. And we might have larger capital allocations if there weren't the ongoing and very generous sal…

> The question I have is, why were things like the Hudson Yards station, work on the perpetually delayed 2nd Avenue subway, Fulton St. station renovation prioritized over the core signal and preexisting aging track infrastructure?

Politicians love being able to do a big ribbon-cutting ceremony for adding something new. At the very least, it's easier to point to a new subway line and say "I helped make that possible" than it is to do that for improved maintenance of infrastructure.

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#32

Post by nine_k »

gsnedders wrote: post #25
lr4444lr wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not necessarily disagreeing, but it's important to point out that fixing/upgrading the system comes from the capital budget, and the promises you're describing are paid out of the operating budget. The debt service for the former, is earmarked, by law, from the latter, which clocks in at 16% according to recent figures[0]. And we might have larger capital allocations if there weren't the ongoing and very generous sal…

> The question I have is, why were things like the Hudson Yards station, work on the perpetually delayed 2nd Avenue subway, Fulton St. station renovation prioritized over the core signal and preexisting aging track infrastructure? Which gets votes? Renewing existing infrastructure is something nobody understands.

"Renewing existing infrastructure" as in "not canceling L train", or "R trains running without problems", etc? That could get some votes.

BTW 2nd avenue subway should be seen as "less crowded green line trains", which matched popular demand rather well, and it did work, to my mind.

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#33

Post by jcranmer »

nine_k wrote: post #26
lr4444lr wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No downtime. The system runs 24/7/365.

But parts of the systems do shut down time to time, by rerouting trains, or by just canceling them and providing shuttle buses. It's perfectly possible to get 8-12 hours long uninterrupted work windows for significant stretches of the railway. The work has to be incremental, of course.

Incrementally redoing the signal system is difficult, particularly because the system has lots of branches and reverse branches--which means you have to basically have it enableable on the entire system before you can enable it, rather than doing lines at a time.

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#34

Post by Nelkins »

perfectstorm wrote: post #5
randomerr wrote: post #2

New York doesn't have enough money to get it done. The politicians are too busy paying for all the election promises they've made over the last 50 years. And they absolutely need to cut the bureaucracy (code word for 'unions' and 'government agencies') that are deeply entrenched in the government. I don't think New York can do it until the people get tired of watching the decay and the current political machine gets…

I'm curious how much money is needed. Why is it that Japan, Hong Kong and most developed European cities have much better rail transportation ? I don't think money is the only issue. NYC is probably one of the richest cities in the world and yet you say they don't have the money to fix this ? I know construction in US is expensive but it can't be that bad.

I'd be very skeptical of the "required" money quoted by anyone who is affiliated with the MTA or state government in general. There's a lot of evidence that indicates the MTA is used as a personal piggy bank. Take, for example, this gem: "MTA wrote $4.9M check to three upstate ski centers in bizarre move requested by Cuomo officials" [1]. Or this one[2] (also part of this NYT series):

"Subway workers now make an average of $170,000 annually in salary, overtime and benefits, according to a Times analysis of data compiled by the federal Department of Transportation. That is far more than in any other American transit system; the average in cities like Boston, Chicago, Los Angeles and Washington is about $100,000 in total compensation annually.

The pay for managers is even more extraordinary. The nearly 2,500 people who work in New York subway administration make, on average, $280,000 in salary, overtime and benefits. The average elsewhere is $115,000."

Why are we paying these employees such an insane amount of money relative to our peers? Political failure[3]. Due to the Triborough Amendment clause of the Taylor Law, anytime negotiations with the union fall through, the terms of the previous contract continue. Thus, the Transit Workers Union (TWU) have no incentive to negotiate in good faith. They can't strike, but they still get a pretty sweet deal.

The solution to this starts at the top. We need to vote out our current corrupt (or at the very least, easily cowed) government and put in place people who will make this a priority and not be completely beholden to special interests.

[1] http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/mta-wrote-4-9m-chec...

[2] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/18/nyregion/new-york-subway-...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_Law#Criticism_and_refor...

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#35

Post by nine_k »

jcranmer wrote: post #33
nine_k wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But parts of the systems do shut down time to time, by rerouting trains, or by just canceling them and providing shuttle buses. It's perfectly possible to get 8-12 hours long uninterrupted work windows for significant stretches of the railway. The work has to be incremental, of course.

Incrementally redoing the signal system is difficult, particularly because the system has lots of branches and reverse branches--which means you have to basically have it enableable on the entire system before you can enable it, rather than doing lines at a time.

Difficult, of course. But not impossible, and not specifically because trains cannot be stopped for doing work. Most of the tunnels have 4 lines, so half the line can be worked on while the line still operates; this is being done all the time.

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#36

Post by lordCarbonFiber »

Nelkins wrote: post #12
closeparen wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

New York isn’t a greenfield project. There’s a massive legacy system with decades of maintenance debt. Of course it’s going to be more expensive to fix than to maintain an already-maintained system.

That may be technically true, but we should be comparing ourselves to other countries that have had to tackle the same problems. Consider the Paris Métro[1], which is even older than the NYC subway system (1900 vs 1904). They have much better service, lower capital and operating costs, automated trains, etc. We need to take a hard look at ourselves and stop using NYC exceptionalism as an excuse. [1] https://en.wikipe…

It also doesn't run 24/7. That's the triumph (and huge complexity multiplier) of the nyc subway system. Having a always on (for some value of always) transit system is a big draw but also a maintenance nightmare.

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#37

Post by zeep »

randomerr wrote: post #2

New York doesn't have enough money to get it done. The politicians are too busy paying for all the election promises they've made over the last 50 years. And they absolutely need to cut the bureaucracy (code word for 'unions' and 'government agencies') that are deeply entrenched in the government. I don't think New York can do it until the people get tired of watching the decay and the current political machine gets…

Are you saying that if the subway was bad enough, it would have been an election promise to fix it?

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#38

Post by Retric »

lordCarbonFiber wrote: post #36
Nelkins wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be technically true, but we should be comparing ourselves to other countries that have had to tackle the same problems. Consider the Paris Métro[1], which is even older than the NYC subway system (1900 vs 1904). They have much better service, lower capital and operating costs, automated trains, etc. We need to take a hard look at ourselves and stop using NYC exceptionalism as an excuse. [1] https://en.wikipe…

It also doesn't run 24/7. That's the triumph (and huge complexity multiplier) of the nyc subway system. Having a always on (for some value of always) transit system is a big draw but also a maintenance nightmare.

Being 24/7 just takes redundancy. If you have 2+ lines from A B, you can single track them during low demand times and with care take any part of the system offline without shutting down.

NYC density increases costs in some ways, but it also makes means they can spend far less to maintain roads / street lights / etc. On top of that the high average and median earnings means NYC has an enviable tax base.

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#39

Post by chimeracoder »

Retric wrote: post #38
lordCarbonFiber wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also doesn't run 24/7. That's the triumph (and huge complexity multiplier) of the nyc subway system. Having a always on (for some value of always) transit system is a big draw but also a maintenance nightmare.

Being 24/7 just takes redundancy. If you have 2+ lines from A B, you can single track them during low demand times and with care take any part of the system offline without shutting down. NYC density increases costs in some ways, but it also makes means they can spend far less to maintain roads / street lights / etc. On top of that the high average and median earnings means NYC has an enviable tax base.

> Being 24/7 just takes redundancy. If you have 2+ lines from A B, you can single track them during low demand times and with care take any part of the system offline without shutting down.

Not all lines have four tracks (some only have two), and even for the ones that do, running trains while work is going on means incredibly slow and delayed service.

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#40

Post by spike021 »

I find this situation incredibly interesting as an outsider.

I live in the SF Bay Area where we have a Muni "subway", if you can even call it reminiscent of one and BART. They're both absolutely awful, between not having good/expansive coverage/timely service. A plethora of issues plague both.

Both times I visited NYC this year I took the subway everywhere. Out of probably 40-50 subway rides, only a handful were delayed either in-tunnel or while I was waiting in the station; the trains were pretty much all clean without odd (read: nasty) smells. And, of course, the routes go all over Manhattan rather than just through, say, Lexington or Park Ave (like how SF's Muni basically converges and mainlines under Market St.).

I found NYC's subway a pleasant improvement. Yet I keep seeing articles about how it needs to be fixed.

Just interesting to spectate as an outsider.

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