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What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

nytimes.com

21–30 of 176 posts

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#21

New York doesn't have enough money to get it done. The politicians are too busy paying for all the election promises they've made over the last 50 years. And they absolutely need to cut the bureaucracy (code word for 'unions' and 'government agencies') that are deeply entrenched in the government. I don't think New York can do it until the people get tired of watching the decay and the current political machine gets…

> I don't think New York can do it until the people get tired of watching the decay and the current political machine gets voted out.

We're tired of it, but New York government is not a democracy. The two ruling parties have passed an complex network of laws which, in effect, mean that officials are accountable only to the political party, not to their constituents.

Case in point: one of the largest advocates of eliminating business service was Silver (a Democrat), despite the fact that his constituents were almost entirely dependent on bus service. When he was finally convicted of corruption, people were shocked - not shocked that he was corrupt (everyone knew - it was completely conducted in the open), but shocked that he was actually going to be held accountable to it. Unfortunately, the conviction was overturned on appeal due to a technicality - a law had been passed which narrowed the definition of corruption, meaning that the things he was convicted for were no longer criminal offenses.

We can't vote them out when there's literally no one to vote in, and both the Democrats and the Republicans have a gentleman's agreement not to compete with each other seriously, the same way Comcast and Time Warner Cable do.

New York is literally the most corrupt state government in the country[0]. Nothing short of a series of multiple federal court rulings will change that, because both parties benefit from it, and neither has the incentive to change it.

[0] http://www.politifact.com/new-york/statements/2016/sep/19/el...

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#22
post #17
post #3

Privatize it. Like it was originally built.

Who would buy it? The system has $40 billion in debt, plus pension obligations, plus union contracts. The only way to make money on this privately would be declaring bankruptcy and hoping for a good settlement.

Completely agree -- not to mention that the reason it stopped being privately owned in the first place was that the original companies went out of business.

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious how much money is needed. Why is it that Japan, Hong Kong and most developed European cities have much better rail transportation ? I don't think money is the only issue. NYC is probably one of the richest cities in the world and yet you say they don't have the money to fix this ? I know construction in US is expensive but it can't be that bad.

Hong Kong has a really interesting answer to that question: they turn a >$1B profit each year. But they can be better described as a real estate company that runs a subway as a side business to make their real estate more valuable.

Japan is similar with both it’s local and inter-City subways/trains.

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No downtime. The system runs 24/7/365.

I'd believe you if my local R line wasn't shut down every weekend for the next year.

Precisely my point: no regularly scheduled downtime to do these things results in major outages when the situation gets too bad to ignore. Same with the impending L-train shutdown.

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#25

New York doesn't have enough money to get it done. The politicians are too busy paying for all the election promises they've made over the last 50 years. And they absolutely need to cut the bureaucracy (code word for 'unions' and 'government agencies') that are deeply entrenched in the government. I don't think New York can do it until the people get tired of watching the decay and the current political machine gets…

Not necessarily disagreeing, but it's important to point out that fixing/upgrading the system comes from the capital budget, and the promises you're describing are paid out of the operating budget. The debt service for the former, is earmarked, by law, from the latter, which clocks in at 16% according to recent figures[0]. And we might have larger capital allocations if there weren't the ongoing and very generous sal…

> The question I have is, why were things like the Hudson Yards station, work on the perpetually delayed 2nd Avenue subway, Fulton St. station renovation prioritized over the core signal and preexisting aging track infrastructure?

Which gets votes? Renewing existing infrastructure is something nobody understands.

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#26

I still don't understand why the signal system takes so long to upgrade. Can't they install most of the new system while the old one is still working on the same tracks? And isn't digital signalling available from contractors that have already done the work in other cities?

No downtime. The system runs 24/7/365.

But parts of the systems do shut down time to time, by rerouting trains, or by just canceling them and providing shuttle buses. It's perfectly possible to get 8-12 hours long uninterrupted work windows for significant stretches of the railway.

The work has to be incremental, of course.

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#27
post #8

If Philly had a subway system as connected as NYC I would be happy.

The connections aren't the problem under discussion. The problem is that it's a crumbling subway system that is having trouble operating at the capacity the city requires. For a city as rich as New York, you would expect something much better.

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#28

I still don't understand why the signal system takes so long to upgrade. Can't they install most of the new system while the old one is still working on the same tracks? And isn't digital signalling available from contractors that have already done the work in other cities?

NYC signal systems is extremely complex and old. 24/7 nature makes it hard to do proper maintenance. Old signal system requires nonstop maintenance to keep it running, and it needs to keep running while new system is installed which is extremely expensive. Tons of politics involved too.

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/11/why-d...

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#29

I still don't understand why the signal system takes so long to upgrade. Can't they install most of the new system while the old one is still working on the same tracks? And isn't digital signalling available from contractors that have already done the work in other cities?

> I still don't understand why the signal system takes so long to upgrade. Can't they install most of the new system while the old one is still working on the same tracks?

They could, technically, but the TWU won't let them. The TWU has used signal upgrades as a perpetual carrot for decades - anytime people talk about improvements, they say "well, we need to do X first, so we can upgrade to the most modern signal technology in Y years."

If they upgraded the signals, they'd lose this leverage, so instead it remains eternally Y years away.

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#30
post #22
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who would buy it? The system has $40 billion in debt, plus pension obligations, plus union contracts. The only way to make money on this privately would be declaring bankruptcy and hoping for a good settlement.

Completely agree -- not to mention that the reason it stopped being privately owned in the first place was that the original companies went out of business.

Wasn't there some story about the city prohibiting them from raising fares? I don't have a source though.
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