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Chrome is Not the Standard

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Re: Chrome is Not the Standard

#411

Post by shard972 »

alwillis wrote: post #407
smarx007 wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't MS also say that IE is a core part of Windows?

Microsoft lied and said that Windows wouldn’t work without IE, to justify bundling it with Windows after they signed a decent decree with the US government forbidding them from using their natural monopoly in operating systems as leverage in other markets. WebKit is used by several Apple apps—Mail, iTunes, App Store, Calendar, etc—and thousands of 3rd party apps.

That was during windows XP wasn't it? I'm sure things have changed since those times.

Re: Chrome is Not the Standard

#412

Post by jhasse »

evolighting wrote: post #379

What really annoyed me recently is WEBP; Yes, I know the format is GREAT AND GOOGLE, but none of my pic view tools on PC be able to print them on screen, nor my None chrome browser. That feel IE anyway.

Well, that's the problem for every new (image) format.

Re: Chrome is Not the Standard

#413

Post by alwillis »

RobertRoberts wrote: post #346
JohnBooty wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I think it's a totally fair assessment. And it's right to be wary of Apple. They have many of the same negative incentives as Microsoft had: if the web outshines their proprietary app platforms, then what good are those platforms? However, out of the two behaviors ("embrace and extend" versus "slow standards adoption") I think that Chrome's "embrace and extend" is the one that's actually a threat - and to me, th…

I agree that Google's Chrome tactics can be perceived as evil, I won't discount that, because it causes issues when you are forced to use a particular browser. But if your client only runs iOS for their entire business, you can't even complain about Chrome to them. And if their browser doesn't support something as simple as offline html5 features properly, and you need this, across multiple platforms (cause they have…

Sounds a little paranoid, especially since Service Workers are on by default in the latest Safari Technology Preview: https://webkit.org/blog/8042/release-notes-for-safari-techno....

You might want to check the WebKit status page; you might be pleasantly surprised: https://webkit.org/status/.

When Safari has complete support for PWAs in 2018, you guys will have to come up with a new Apple conspiracy against the web. ;-)

Until just last month, Firefox was pretty damn slow compared to Safari and Chrome but they got a pass from the HN crowd.

I suspect Tim Cook isn’t losing sleep about PWAs vs. native apps. It’s win-win for Apple either way.

Re: Chrome is Not the Standard

#414

Post by akvadrako »

greggman wrote: post #348
frivoal wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CSS Working group person here. We're trying. Grid (also Flexbox, but mainly grid) should be a large part of the solution, as it significantly reduces the need for divs that are just there for layout purposes. display:content should also help disconnecting your markup needs from your styling needs somewhat (go shout at browsers if it's not coming fast enough). We've also recently decided to add multiple borders, so th…

the problem is css is tied to and gets it's hierarchy from the html elements. In order to truly separate style and layout from content you need a separate hierarchy and that would be a huge change https://games.greggman.com/game/css-grid-fail/

You could use XSLT which was supported by Firefox and IE over 10 years ago.

Re: Chrome is Not the Standard

#415

Post by Mayzie »

starik36 wrote: post #381
NightlyDev wrote: post #169

"Safari ships new features on a much slower cadence, but they’re usually solid and always perform incredibly well" Well, clearly this person doesn't have much experience with web development... The webengine in iOS is the biggest pile of crap I've ever worked with since IE6. "Oh? You want to click this? OK, let's wait for 300 ms just in case you want to double tap to scroll!" "We finally fixed it, no more delay on cl…

I disagree. The IE6 of today is IE11, not Safari. Just look caniuse.come for practically any modern feature. It either requires you to pollute your code base with polyfills or doesn't work at all. Every day bring another fun barrier. Today it was Promises ( https://caniuse.com/#search=promise ), tomorrow, I am sure, it'll be something else.

Except IE11 is 4 years old and no longer has any feature development. Use Edge.

Re: Chrome is Not the Standard

#416

Post by alwillis »

RobertRoberts wrote: post #82
connorelsea wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chrome is implementing a standard that pretty much all other modern browsers are also implementing. For example, service workers - implemented by Chrome initially and pretty heavily integrated into Android/PWAs - but Firefox and Safari are also shipping this feature currently. And also most features, such as service workers, can be effectively used with progressive enhancement, still providing a working experience to…

Sorry, the op is right. Safari IS the new IE. Service workers is one of the most egregious failures on their part. And I believe it's been done on purpose. With service workers you get full control over building your JS based app, something Apple does not want, they want everyone to got through their store. Considering that the only way (moving forward) to create an offline JS app now is through service workers, and…

Since Service Workers were enabled in STP as of a couple of days ago, the next upgrade to Safari in a few months will likely have it—it’s not 1-2 years away as you suggested.

I’m pretty sure I’ll be running PWAs on my iPhone 5s the first half of 2018.

Re: Chrome is Not the Standard

#417

Post by deno »

greggman wrote: post #348
frivoal wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CSS Working group person here. We're trying. Grid (also Flexbox, but mainly grid) should be a large part of the solution, as it significantly reduces the need for divs that are just there for layout purposes. display:content should also help disconnecting your markup needs from your styling needs somewhat (go shout at browsers if it's not coming fast enough). We've also recently decided to add multiple borders, so th…

the problem is css is tied to and gets it's hierarchy from the html elements. In order to truly separate style and layout from content you need a separate hierarchy and that would be a huge change https://games.greggman.com/game/css-grid-fail/

XML had it right with XSLT. It stands for Extensible Stylesheet Language Transformations. Because the language was clearly defined from the start for data not presentation the need for structure transformation was apparent.

There’s absolutely no reason why HTML5 shouldn’t reinvent something similar. Make it much simpler, just reuse the existing Web Template spec, which simply defines new elements with slots and selectors.

Example:

[ was super long so I moved it: https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmQUszZRdHfdVUZwvQL2tK12XrW54TdJJqXEkm1... ]

More complicated transformations, like the toc here (arguably not that complicated but whatever), are better handled by user Javascript. Because let’s be honest XSLT like transforms are too hard.

Not immediately obvious is the fact that browsers could simply replace and rerun Javascript on page navigation, instead of rebuilding the entire page, if the templates match.

There are in fact many optimizations possible with this scheme. You could mark some regions that share a template as shadow DOM etc.

---

You can also provide polyfill for this TODAY using Service Workers. It’s not that crazy.

Re: Chrome is Not the Standard

#418

Post by Arkanosis »

jhbadger wrote: post #400
gaius wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

doesn't know or remember the dark of days of IE 5 and IE 6. I remember that when IE6 was first released it was the fastest, most reliable, most standards compliant and feature rich browser. That's why it took over the corporate world. It was the Chrome of its day, if you will. How did that work out?

The main issue with IE6 was that it was Windows only, making life miserable for those not using Windows. Chrome is on Linux and OSX as well. So there isn't really the "I can't access this site because I don't use Windows" problem that was a real problem then. Even if your favorite browser is Firefox, Edge, or Safari, you can still have Chrome on your system for Chrome-only sites.

… so the main issue is that Chrome is Chrome only so "I can't access this site because I don't use Chrome". Maybe a bit better than being Windows only, but not that much, in my opinion. I don't want Chrome on my system.

Re: Chrome is Not the Standard

#419

Post by wor3q »

alwillis wrote: post #407
smarx007 wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't MS also say that IE is a core part of Windows?

Microsoft lied and said that Windows wouldn’t work without IE, to justify bundling it with Windows after they signed a decent decree with the US government forbidding them from using their natural monopoly in operating systems as leverage in other markets. WebKit is used by several Apple apps—Mail, iTunes, App Store, Calendar, etc—and thousands of 3rd party apps.

But the problem is not to stop them from shipping webkit with ios, but to allow other browsers to use their own engines. Do you imagine what would happened if every browser on Windows had to use trident for rendering?

Microsoft ended up with 'n' version of xp, which had all shortcuts to IE hidden, and a prompt asking you which browser you want to install and use after installation.

Re: Chrome is Not the Standard

#420

Post by wor3q »

pjmlp wrote: post #369
bhawks wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two points: 1. Today we have 4 browser implementors. Only one of them doesn't also own an operating system (FF). We lost opera year or two ago. I would argue that a significant factor in this shrinking landscape is the fact that Apple has locked away ~10% of the market forever (and this 10% is not a random sampling - it includes many high value customers). Sure implementing a browser is technically challenging - my a…

I don't see it any different than what Google is doing with Chrome, specially with ChromeOS.

You can always install other os along with other browser on a chromebook. You can install whatever engine you want on android.

With ios you cannot do anything, you're just stuck with safari.

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