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Chrome is Not the Standard

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Re: Chrome is Not the Standard

#371

Post by pjmlp »

JohnBooty wrote: post #155
RobertRoberts wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe we can split the difference. Chrome == IE because of breaking standards, and Safari == IE because it is so far behind on supporting standards. Also, both Chrome OS and iOS, both have integrated their browser into their OS and don't allow competition from other browsers on their platforms. Is that a fair assessment?

Yeah I think it's a totally fair assessment. And it's right to be wary of Apple. They have many of the same negative incentives as Microsoft had: if the web outshines their proprietary app platforms, then what good are those platforms? However, out of the two behaviors ("embrace and extend" versus "slow standards adoption") I think that Chrome's "embrace and extend" is the one that's actually a threat - and to me, th…

Same applies to Google, lets not forget that the bad experience of web apps over Android native ones, meant that now it is also possible to use Android native apps on ChromeOS and that they took the effort to implement something like Java Web Start (Instant Apps) for Android.

Re: Chrome is Not the Standard

#372

Post by mintplant »

dblohm7 wrote: post #362
mintplant wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the record, Mozilla didn't get any money for the Mr. Robot tie-in: it was supposed to be part of a mutual cross-promotion campaign. I don't think the original Pocket integration was paid, either, though my memory there is hazy. Either way Mozilla now owns Pocket anyway.

Mozilla never directly received money for the Pocket placement, however they did get a piece of any premium sign-ups made via the Firefox integration.

Thanks for the clarification.

Re: Chrome is Not the Standard

#373

Post by methyl »

seanp2k2 wrote: post #172
asplake wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even on my iPhone I can’t browse CNN while simultaneously listening to music or the radio (iPlayer). Even though the videos are silent until clicked, they still take over the audio. Gets me every time!

What would a better experience be on iOS? I personally wouldn’t find mixing the audio and having to pause one or open a per-app volume mixer control panel to be a better implementation.

Play them with no sound by default if you are already listening to something.

Re: Chrome is Not the Standard

#374

Post by alwillis »

tpush wrote: post #214
NightlyDev wrote: post #169

"Safari ships new features on a much slower cadence, but they’re usually solid and always perform incredibly well" Well, clearly this person doesn't have much experience with web development... The webengine in iOS is the biggest pile of crap I've ever worked with since IE6. "Oh? You want to click this? OK, let's wait for 300 ms just in case you want to double tap to scroll!" "We finally fixed it, no more delay on cl…

Given this it's really a shame that Apple does not allow other browser engines on iOS. Would be a prime opportunity for competition to raise the overall quality level.

Given this it's really a shame that Apple does not allow other browser engines on iOS. Would be a prime opportunity for competition to raise the overall quality level.

WebKit is a core part of iOS; lots of APIs use it for lots of things. You just can't swap it out for something else without breaking things.

Lets not forget the security and power usage issues as well; the last thing iPhone users would want is a rendering engine that wasn't optimized for the hardware and software draining their batteries.

Re: Chrome is Not the Standard

#375

Post by ori_b »

sowbug wrote: post #356
ori_b wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In short, nobody is breaking web standards, because they didn't submit their changes to a standards body. Because it's not standardized, it doesn't count as breaking standards. Now, if they did submit to a standards body, and it got approved, it would be standardized. Therefore, it doesn't count as breaking standards.

Hey, if you want every browser to be identical, that's your right. I happen to think that competition among browsers is a good thing, and that means that they'll always be at least a little bit different. Shouldn't it matter which browser you use? No major browser vendor (in the modern era, at least) wants to break interoperability -- that's the bright line that separates innovation from fragmentation -- and you'll f…

> Shouldn't it matter which browser you use?

Yes, in terms of performance, user interface preferences, features like bookmark syncing, and so on.

But visiting any page should work in any browser. If proprietary extensions get used, then the pages are no longer able to interoperate. You now have a proprietary ecosystem.

If these proprietary extensions catch on, now you're back to the bad old "best viewed in IE6" days.

Re: Chrome is Not the Standard

#376

Post by alwillis »

user5994461 wrote: post #222
tpush wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given this it's really a shame that Apple does not allow other browser engines on iOS. Would be a prime opportunity for competition to raise the overall quality level.

Looks like a case for anti trust, just like microsoft had with IE.

Looks like a case for anti trust, just like microsoft had with IE.

You must be new around here. ;-)

Microsoft used their natural monopoly in operating systems (Windows has 95% marketshare) to force OEMs (HP, Compaq, etc.) to bundle IE with their machines and not Netscape Navigator. Microsoft threaten to cancel their Windows licenses.

And later, it decided, against its decent decree with the US government, to bundle IE with Windows, claiming Windows wouldn't function without IE, which was a lie.

Perhaps you're not aware that natural monopolies are themselves not illegal; it's using that monopoly to force the market to do things it ordinarily wouldn't in some other area.

So… no, there are no antitrust issues regarding web engines on iOS. And of course, Google, Mozilla and others have browsers on the App Store that use WebKit anyway, so it would be hard to make the case they're being harmed…

Re: Chrome is Not the Standard

#377

Post by alwillis »

Spivak wrote: post #295
threeseed wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) iOS is not a monopoly. 2) Apple has legitimate technical reasons for not allowing other browser engines (well specifically the JS part). Intent matters.

I think this thread is full of people who want Apple be considered a monopoly more than care about whether they actually are.

Ding ding ding!

Re: Chrome is Not the Standard

#378

Post by dao- »

headmelted wrote: post #232

This isn't new, though. I think people forgive Google for more because they like them. IE did exactly the same thing before Chrome and was roundly (and rightly) admonished for it. In fairness, Chrome's proposals do seem to be designed with the open web in mind - at least insofar as being items that other projects could reasonably be expected to implement in their engines if they chose to do so. There's nothing so egr…

NaCl was as bad as ActiveX but less successful, thank God.

Re: Chrome is Not the Standard

#380

Post by alwillis »

bhawks wrote: post #207

I wish the author discussed the fact that Apple doesn't allow any other browsers to target the iOS platform. Chrome / Firefox are forced to be thin wrappers against the webkit engine instead of bringing their own technology. No other platform has policies like this and it greatly impacts the web platform and changes the dynamic of web standards in a way no other browser developer could.

No other platform has policies like this and it greatly impacts the web platform and changes the dynamic of web standards in a way no other browser developer could.

Wow, that's quite a stretch. I monitor web standards pretty closely and I haven't found this to be the case.

I have seen many threads on Github and mailing lists with Google, Apple, Mozilla and Microsoft actually communicating with each other on how to implement web standards in a cross-browser way.

Here's a good example: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/pull/1817

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