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What Needs to Happen Before Electric Cars Take Over the World

nytimes.com

451–460 of 460 posts

Re: What Needs to Happen Before Electric Cars Take Over the World

#451
post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and those huge fuel tanks sunk into the ground aren't going anywhere You think I’m letting that pass without pointing out that the fuel tanks are a sunk cost? Gas stations are really convenience stores, they don’t make money on fuel. The only difference will be that we pull up in an EV to get our Big Gulp. Gas or no, that real estate will still be used to sell you chips and lottery tickets. In the Seattle area, I kno…

> You think I’m letting that pass without pointing out that the fuel tanks are a sunk cost? That is true, yet it makes no difference to my point.

I’ve been waiting a whole day for someone to pick up on the pun, and this is what I get? :-) Your point stands, I was being a wiseacre.

Re: What Needs to Happen Before Electric Cars Take Over the World

#452

Biggest problem I guess will be expanding the charger network, simply due to physics. On the country side, laying cables for 1MW peak load (4 superchargers @ 250 kW) will be expensive - the grid in rural areas is enough for some farms and small villages, that's it. In cities, electric-car chargers will have to deal with political obstacles (no one wants to sacrifice free-for-all parking spots!), in addition to the el…

Would it be feasible to put inductive chargers and battery banks under the parking spot, so that no wires are exposed and the spot could be used by non electric cars if required? Maybe a signal to/from the car to determine charge rates and negotiate power feeds? Or is that too much power to pass through a special thin layer of say, epoxy concrete? Seems like a good place to have a battery box, to protect it from heat…

You mean like this from five years ago? http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-18984160

Re: What Needs to Happen Before Electric Cars Take Over the World

#453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think electrical cost is a deal-breaker. Do you have any numbers, or are you guessing?

It costs $1 to put 8kW (30miles) into a car, and takes about an hour (for a level 2 charger) so the cost of electricity is less than the land value (unsubsidized meter rate) of the parking space itself, in any urban area.

Why didn't you consider other costs, such as equipment, installation, maintenance, etc? Why did you reduce the value to the parking meter rate?

Re: What Needs to Happen Before Electric Cars Take Over the World

#454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think electrical cost is a deal-breaker. Do you have any numbers, or are you guessing?

If you are talking about pure electrical cost, the average cost per kwh in the US is about 12 cents according to NPR. An average Nissan Leaf battery is about 24kwh (although some cars have much smaller or larger batteries). So if you assume an average Leaf is totally empty, and charging to completely full, that would be a little less than $3 of electricity for roughly 84 miles of range. To charge a car quickly takes…

That's interesting, thanks.

But why didn't you consider other costs, such as equipment installation and maintenance?

And what about the grid? Can the grid sustain the equivalent amount of energy that the nation's cars burn every day in gasoline?

Re: What Needs to Happen Before Electric Cars Take Over the World

#455
post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe we'll just become less mobile, and be okay with that. This is bizarre. Is there any other technology, any other quality-of-life issue, in which people would advocate or settle for regression? Technology is advancing faster than ever before, the pace is still increasing--yet people are saying that we should go back to not having personal vehicles, not travelling much... What's going on here?

It is not a regression if that way of life was not sustainable. http://www.businessinsider.com/strong-towns-growth-ponzi-sch... But most urbanists and community groups aren’t interested in the big-picture finances. They’re concerned with on-the-ground experience, and the personal car is not essential to it. Technology is providing car sharing and ride sharing for short distances, and airplanes for long distances. Jus…

> It is not a regression if that way of life was not sustainable.

Yes it is. It's literally a regression. The reason for the regression is orthogonal to the fact that it is a regression.

> They’re concerned with on-the-ground experience, and the personal car is not essential to it.

This is a generalization that does not account for the way of life of most of the population.

> Technology is providing car sharing and ride sharing for short distances, and airplanes for long distances. Just-in-time global supply chains that make tropical fruit affordable in the neighborhood grocery store, also provide anything else in the world to my doorstep. Emission control technology and tree plantings make urban life sometimes less polluted than rural life.

None of that helps a family of four cart their kids around town. Or anyone who lives outside of an urban area. Or anyone who likes to have room to carry anything around, go on weekend trips, etc.

> Emission control technology and tree plantings make urban life sometimes less polluted than rural life.

A vague generalization, and generally unlikely.

> We live great lives without personal cars, and we don’t want to be forced into legacy environments that require cars.

This is also bizarre. It's especially so when you look at the bigger picture, in which cars are an evolution of the horse-drawn carriage. Imagine telling a family 150 years ago that their horse is not sustainable, so they have to give it up. Imagine telling them that you live a great life without a horse, and you don't want to be forced into a legacy environment that requires horses, so they should get used to life without a horse.

Re: What Needs to Happen Before Electric Cars Take Over the World

#456
We no longer live in a past-is-prologue world. Now we live in a if-the-business-plan-works world where human inertia is no longer a big factor. All of the discussions below assume that most cars will be personally owned. My guess is that most passenger miles and commercial ton miles will be logged by robotaxis and robotrucks in the near term (five to ten years) because the convenience will be so high and the cost so low. The robotaxis will have smallish batteries and will charge often, but the charge stations will be more centralized and will be fed by small utility pv installations dotted around the periphery of the city and yes, these same robotaxis could be used for load balancing storage, but I suspect that their used and/or obsolete batteries will provide the storage.

  No need for parking space chargers or for that matter for parking spaces.

Re: What Needs to Happen Before Electric Cars Take Over the World

#457
post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You think I’m letting that pass without pointing out that the fuel tanks are a sunk cost? That is true, yet it makes no difference to my point.

I’ve been waiting a whole day for someone to pick up on the pun, and this is what I get? :-) Your point stands, I was being a wiseacre.

lol, i saw that but was a bit confused to the extent of explanation you went to "sink" your pun in.

Re: What Needs to Happen Before Electric Cars Take Over the World

#458
post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not a regression if that way of life was not sustainable. http://www.businessinsider.com/strong-towns-growth-ponzi-sch... But most urbanists and community groups aren’t interested in the big-picture finances. They’re concerned with on-the-ground experience, and the personal car is not essential to it. Technology is providing car sharing and ride sharing for short distances, and airplanes for long distances. Jus…

> It is not a regression if that way of life was not sustainable. Yes it is. It's literally a regression. The reason for the regression is orthogonal to the fact that it is a regression. > They’re concerned with on-the-ground experience, and the personal car is not essential to it. This is a generalization that does not account for the way of life of most of the population. > Technology is providing car sharing and r…

> > It is not a regression if that way of life was not sustainable.

> Yes it is. It's literally a regression.

It’s not a regression. It’s an advance in way of life. In the past, if you wanted to move fast, you had to own the car. Now you don’t need to own it, and can use the space for something else. Now you don’t need to drive it, and can have your hands free while someone else drives the car.

> > Just-in-time global supply chains that make tropical fruit affordable in the neighborhood grocery store, also provide anything else in the world to my doorstep.

> None of that helps a family of four cart their kids around town. Or anyone who lives outside of an urban area. Or anyone who likes to have room to carry anything around, go on weekend trips, etc.

Owning a car is not freedom. Owning a car is being separated from friends and family, because the car is literally, physically, coming between you. Owning a car is being stuck in traffic. Owning a car is being a slave to the DMV, the gas station, and the repair shop.

Living without a car is not giving up mobility. It’s living in a place where the car is just one option, and not necessarily the best option. Growing up, my family of five carted around town via public transit. We couldn’t afford to own a car, so living in a place built around car ownership would have meant living in isolation. Requiring a car is not sustainable.

> > Emission control technology and tree plantings make urban life sometimes less polluted than rural life.

> A vague generalization, and generally unlikely.

https://www.livestrong.com/article/119955-harmful-effects-fe...

https://www.menshealth.com/health/lawn-chemical-hazards

Intensive agriculture has helped make food incredibly cheap, but the concentrated chemicals do not seem healthy to be near.

> > We live great lives without personal cars, and we don’t want to be forced into legacy environments that require cars.

> This is also bizarre. It's especially so when you look at the bigger picture, in which cars are an evolution of the horse-drawn carriage.

Not everybody owned the horse-drawn carriage. And people did give up the horse, sometimes reluctantly, because they could not afford to keep it. Fortunately, they lived in places where the horse was just one option, and not necessarily the best option.

https://www.strongtowns.org/curbside-chat-1/2015/12/14/ameri...

Re: What Needs to Happen Before Electric Cars Take Over the World

#459
post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is not a regression if that way of life was not sustainable. Yes it is. It's literally a regression. The reason for the regression is orthogonal to the fact that it is a regression. > They’re concerned with on-the-ground experience, and the personal car is not essential to it. This is a generalization that does not account for the way of life of most of the population. > Technology is providing car sharing and r…

> > It is not a regression if that way of life was not sustainable. > Yes it is. It's literally a regression. It’s not a regression. It’s an advance in way of life. In the past, if you wanted to move fast, you had to own the car. Now you don’t need to own it, and can use the space for something else. Now you don’t need to drive it, and can have your hands free while someone else drives the car. > > Just-in-time globa…

> It’s not a regression. It’s an advance in way of life.

You're framing, and in a very intellectually dishonest way.

> In the past, if you wanted to move fast, you had to own the car. Now you don’t need to own it, and can use the space for something else. Now you don’t need to drive it, and can have your hands free while someone else drives the car.

That's not true. Taxis have been around longer than cars have. Why did you ignore this?

> Owning a car is not freedom.

It certainly is, just as owning a bicycle or having legs and feet that work are.

> Owning a car is being separated from friends and family, because the car is literally, physically, coming between you.

You're being bizarre here. According to you, my car separates me from my family that lives hundreds of miles away, because the metal and glass physically separate us while I'm in the car driving to see them? Are you being serious, or is this an elaborate trolling?

> Owning a car is being stuck in traffic.

Depends on where you live. Many millions of people live where traffic is not an issue. And when the alternative to being stuck in traffic for a few minutes is spending 5x that long walking or riding a bike, it's a net savings of time.

> Owning a car is being a slave to the DMV, the gas station, and the repair shop.

By that logic, walking is being a slave to the shoe company and the supermarket. Again, are you being serious? Do you actually think this way?

> Living without a car is not giving up mobility. It’s living in a place where the car is just one option, and not necessarily the best option. Growing up, my family of five carted around town via public transit. We couldn’t afford to own a car, so living in a place built around car ownership would have meant living in isolation.

Do you actually believe these kinds of blanket statements? Have you ever met anyone who has trouble walking but can drive a car? Have you ever met anyone who needs to transport a walker or a scooter so they can get around after they get out of their car? I guess you would expect them to wait for the city's "old folks bus" to come along and scoop them up--if there even is one where they live. For all your talk about people living in isolation, you are incredibly narrow-minded and inconsiderate of those less fortunate than yourself.

> Requiring a car is not sustainable.

It certainly is. We've been using them for over 100 years and show no signs of slowing down. Cars are as sustainable as any other human activity, which is to say, as sustainable as we want it to be. Of course, there are people, such as yourself, who do not want it to be, therefore you claim that it is not, to convince people to stop, for reasons you would rather not admit to.

> Intensive agriculture has helped make food incredibly cheap, but the concentrated chemicals do not seem healthy to be near.

For you to make such a statement, implying that to live outside of urban areas is unhealthy, is beyond bizarre.

> Not everybody owned the horse-drawn carriage. And people did give up the horse, sometimes reluctantly, because they could not afford to keep it. Fortunately, they lived in places where the horse was just one option, and not necessarily the best option.

Not everyone did everything. Some people did somethings. Some people lived in some places, and some in others. From that, you would derive conclusions about what we should be allowed to do today. Amazing.

Re: What Needs to Happen Before Electric Cars Take Over the World

#460
post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is not a regression if that way of life was not sustainable. Yes it is. It's literally a regression. The reason for the regression is orthogonal to the fact that it is a regression. > They’re concerned with on-the-ground experience, and the personal car is not essential to it. This is a generalization that does not account for the way of life of most of the population. > Technology is providing car sharing and r…

> > It is not a regression if that way of life was not sustainable. > Yes it is. It's literally a regression. It’s not a regression. It’s an advance in way of life. In the past, if you wanted to move fast, you had to own the car. Now you don’t need to own it, and can use the space for something else. Now you don’t need to drive it, and can have your hands free while someone else drives the car. > > Just-in-time globa…

Disappointing but unsurprising that you would downvote instead of replying. I encourage you to contemplate your processes of reasoning. If you can't refute my points, you are a captive of what you currently think.
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