Why Don’t Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Don’t Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are?

#161

Post by aesto » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 4:54 PM UTC

As a German living in the US, I wholeheartedly agree with this article, especially the bit about everything being somewhat lower quality.

And despite the lower quality, things usually are considerably more expensive anyway. If I might just add one more example: housing. Rent prices in the U.S. are generally about twice what they are in Germany for comparable units, and yet the houses here are incredibly flimsy (walls made out of plywood and windows without proper insulation - you just don't see that in Germany) for anyone but the upper class.

And if the comments here are any indicator, the article is also right about the fact that Americans are never even going to realize how poor the quality of life is in comparison to Europe. Instead, they just placate themselves with myths about collectivism, socialism or communism in Europe (none of those are even remotely a thing).

Which is all the more heartbreaking because there are some things about the US that I absolutely love.

Re: Why Don’t Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are?

#162

Post by rusk » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 4:56 PM UTC

padseeker wrote: post #129

1_2__4 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do they ever qualify or quantify what is meant by “more opportunity”?

Keep in mind everything I'm about to tell you refers to those in the corporate world, where many people have college educations, etc. This is not finding or losing a minimum wage job in retail. If you are of lower education or working a low wage job you might have less stress in a place like Europe. Take everything I say with a grain of salt, just like you should with the author of this article. The most recent conve…

These are excellent points, and I think they highlight a lot of the things that are "good" about how the American labour market works, and the deficiencies of the "social utopia" of Europe.

I think you can take it too far in either directions and I am relieved that you point out the deficiencies of this approach when it comes to healthcare.

I think France in particular often comes in for a lot of fire with regards to having these big slow expensive bureaucratic structures.

But then at the same time, along with the US, France is one of the top exporting economies in the world? They can't be doing too badly.

Re: Why Don’t Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are?

#163

Post by tbirrell » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 4:58 PM UTC

uoaei wrote: post #159

te_chris wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think part of your argument is true: Europe benefits from being in the American sphere of defence, but, I also think this is a red herring as the USA is more than rich enough to have both a strong military and look after its population.

The defense spending isn't necessarily the issue, it's the meteoric rise of allocation in the budget year after year to defense spending. We are overspending, and it only gets worse for the citizens.

I think this is a result of never truly leaving a wartime economy. We had WWII, then the Korean War, then the Cold War (with Vietnam in the middle) all on top of each other and justifying the expense for almost 50 years. I don't think America knows how to cut defense without losing military dominance. As te_chris said, Defense spending might be a red herring, but I would say it is almost certainly the foundation of the problem.

The other major budget problem is welfare/comunal programs. These have been hyperinflated over the last 20-30 years or so. I personally believe one of the reasons it works so much better in Europe is the fact that any given program is orders of magnitude smaller than American attempts. To improve quality-of-life to the level the article wants, I think America need to trim (trim, not cut) military spending and stop welfare spending entirely and let the states handle it (with parameters of course, but it would be a far less unwieldy beast for them handle).

Re: Why Don’t Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are?

#164

Post by padseeker » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 4:59 PM UTC

lmm wrote: post #111

padseeker wrote: post #34

This article starts off terribly. It does not get contain enough real substance till it gets to the point about the differential in life expectancy and discusses the point about 'the myth of exceptionalism in America'. The whole line about the difference in entertainment is utter drivel. Big Brother started in the UK, there is plenty of garbage culture coming from Europe. For the record I've met quite a few Europeans…

> The whole line about the difference in entertainment is utter drivel. Big Brother started in the UK, there is plenty of garbage culture coming from Europe. Started in the Netherlands FWIW, and the original Big Brother was a genuinely innovative, brave piece of television, like it or not. Garbage culture is ploughing the format into the ground with hundreds of almost-identical shows, and that was more of a US thing.…

I stand corrected - I did not know Big Brother started in the Netherlands. Thanks for the heads up.

Re: Why Don’t Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are?

#165

Post by cthalupa » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 5:03 PM UTC

JPKab wrote: post #158

GiorgioG wrote: post #86

The author must live in an alternate universe. I'm a dual-citizen (US/France) due to my mother being born in France. "so they already look half-dead — order coffee and a croissant, both of which are fairly tasteless" Sorry, but there are plenty of places where croissants don't suck (give Wegmans a try) - and I'd be hard-pressed to believe that those major US cities don't have bakeries run/owned by real frenchmen. "Ev…

Thanks for this comment. The arrogance of this rich yuppie with homes in New York and London (my god, can you be any more of a stereotype?) comparing a densely populated continent to a mostly rural, sparsely populated nation is astounding. I love Europe, and I collaborate with the devs out of our office in Prague all the time. I love visiting, and like the people. Half of our team would love to move here. Why? They h…

Having spent extensive time in NYC and London, I don't understand how someone with the money to eat out all the time (like someone with homes in both obviously would) can say that the US loses out on quality of food. Having been all over the world, without hesitation, I would say that New York City is the best city in the world for food. It doesn't have the most Michelin stars, but the everyday options for people eating out are phenomenal, and the diversity is unmatched. Nowhere else in the world can you go and get so many different types of food that are well prepared. You can't do it in London. You can't do it in Berlin. You can't do it in Tokyo. You can't do it in Hong Kong. You can't do it in Paris. Hell, food diversity in Houston is better than all of those other cities. Why? Because America is a lot more diverse than Europe in general. In absolution population, the US has more minorities than Europe on the whole, despite having half the population - the relative amount is double!

And that's also why I immediately am so skeptical on the claims about things like art, etc, as well. There's far fewer cultures having an input on them, and things like art are elevated by having a diversity of influences and influxes of ideas.

Re: Why Don’t Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are?

#166

Post by padseeker » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 5:07 PM UTC

GiorgioG wrote: post #117

padseeker wrote: post #34

This article starts off terribly. It does not get contain enough real substance till it gets to the point about the differential in life expectancy and discusses the point about 'the myth of exceptionalism in America'. The whole line about the difference in entertainment is utter drivel. Big Brother started in the UK, there is plenty of garbage culture coming from Europe. For the record I've met quite a few Europeans…

> The lack of a decent safety net in the US scares the crap out of me. What kind of safety net? No you're not going to lose your job and draw unemployment benefits equal to your salary for years on end. This is also the land of personal responsibility. It can be scary at times. My 6 year old son has a chronic illness (type 1 diabetes) and his supplies cost an exorbitant amount of money. If somehow I was unable to fin…

Your son having diabetes is not the same as say you getting an illness that prevents you from working. Or an illness for a child that requires more attention, maybe round the clock care.

And if you work for minimum wage AND you have a child with diabetes its a very different story. Most of the people hanging around HN are technology related, some of us have a tendency to be a little egocentric.

To compare your situation, having a child with a chronic but very manageable condition (diabetes) as opposed to say severe autism. I was just reading a story on NPR about a couple, where the husband is a programmer making 100K, and they have 2 autistic children. They don't have furniture in their house. They've declared bankruptcy. They have tons of medical bills.

https://www.npr.org/2017/12/03/567602293/what-living-on-100-...

Re: Why Don’t Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are?

#167

Post by cthalupa » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 5:08 PM UTC

aesto wrote: post #161

As a German living in the US, I wholeheartedly agree with this article, especially the bit about everything being somewhat lower quality. And despite the lower quality, things usually are considerably more expensive anyway. If I might just add one more example: housing. Rent prices in the U.S. are generally about twice what they are in Germany for comparable units, and yet the houses here are incredibly flimsy (walls…

Your claims are not backed by reality.

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Germany/Uni...

You can dive into each individual metric, but the purchasing power is probably the single best one to look at for determining how economically empowered people are, and the US is significantly better than Germany - 2nd in the world, in fact, beaten only by Switzerland.

Looking at housing in particular, "Double" is flat out incorrect for rent prices. In the US it is a bit higher, but only about 10%. Double IS correct for purchasing housing... but in the opposite direction of what you're claiming.

If you went from living outside of the city in Germany to living inside a major city in the US, then yeah, I could see things being more expensive, but comparing the two countries against each other, it's just completely incorrect.

Re: Why Don’t Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are?

#168

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 5:09 PM UTC

GiorgioG wrote: post #117

padseeker wrote: post #34

This article starts off terribly. It does not get contain enough real substance till it gets to the point about the differential in life expectancy and discusses the point about 'the myth of exceptionalism in America'. The whole line about the difference in entertainment is utter drivel. Big Brother started in the UK, there is plenty of garbage culture coming from Europe. For the record I've met quite a few Europeans…

> The lack of a decent safety net in the US scares the crap out of me. What kind of safety net? No you're not going to lose your job and draw unemployment benefits equal to your salary for years on end. This is also the land of personal responsibility. It can be scary at times. My 6 year old son has a chronic illness (type 1 diabetes) and his supplies cost an exorbitant amount of money. If somehow I was unable to fin…

[deleted]

Re: Why Don’t Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are?

#169

Post by FabHK » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 5:10 PM UTC

GiorgioG wrote: post #149

soVeryTired wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Medical bankruptcy isn't really a thing in the rest of the world. That's part of the safety net, and it's hard to reconcile with the notion of 'personal responsibility'. > I don't expect everyone else to pay for my family's bad luck / misfortune If you take out an insurance contract, that's exactly what you're doing.

> Medical bankruptcy isn't really a thing in the rest of the world. Agreed, it's a problem, but for the average person with a job who elects an insurance plan (the vast majority of Americans,) it's not an issue. My sister-in-law spent 4 years being treated for cancer before passing away last year. Despite running up hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of bills between chemo, multiple surgeries, etc, it did not ban…

> the average person with a job who elects an insurance plan

It also forces you to stay in a job, even if it turns sour, until you've lined up an alternative.

I can't help but think that employers like it.

Re: Why Don’t Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are?

#170

Post by FabHK » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 5:15 PM UTC

wildermuthn wrote: post #147

padseeker wrote: post #34

This article starts off terribly. It does not get contain enough real substance till it gets to the point about the differential in life expectancy and discusses the point about 'the myth of exceptionalism in America'. The whole line about the difference in entertainment is utter drivel. Big Brother started in the UK, there is plenty of garbage culture coming from Europe. For the record I've met quite a few Europeans…

The article's major flaw is lumping all "Americans" together. Life expectancy varies wildly across race and income. America has always chosen to make the desires of the rich and powerful more important than the needs of the poor and powerless. We sometimes call this the American Dream. Equality in America isn't about all people having a decent life. It is more akin to Animal Farm: "All animals are equal, but some ani…

> it is silly to claim that "Americans" are living poor lives

Good point. The funny thing though is that the median American leads a fairly drab life, but still fully subscribes to his own exploitation, if you will. Witness the election of a Republican president, house, and senate.

As John Steinbeck is reported to have said, "Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat, but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires."