Why Don’t Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Don’t Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are?

#111

Post by lmm » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 4:21 PM UTC

padseeker wrote: post #34

This article starts off terribly. It does not get contain enough real substance till it gets to the point about the differential in life expectancy and discusses the point about 'the myth of exceptionalism in America'. The whole line about the difference in entertainment is utter drivel. Big Brother started in the UK, there is plenty of garbage culture coming from Europe. For the record I've met quite a few Europeans…

> The whole line about the difference in entertainment is utter drivel. Big Brother started in the UK, there is plenty of garbage culture coming from Europe.

Started in the Netherlands FWIW, and the original Big Brother was a genuinely innovative, brave piece of television, like it or not. Garbage culture is ploughing the format into the ground with hundreds of almost-identical shows, and that was more of a US thing.

> I find it strange to mention Spain, and really all the PIIGS nations who not long ago were in financial dire straits and Greece has still not escaped.

It's vital to mention, because that can be the downside of the European approach: stagnant economies where people are comfortable but growth is low.

> The lack of a decent safety net in the US scares the crap out of me. The richest nation in the world should not have this poor a safety net. But to make Europe seem like some workers paradise is laughable.

Like you say, becoming a billionaire isn't something that seems possible in Europe; people who want to win big will prefer the US. But I do think Europe genuinely has it better for the average person.

Re: Why Don’t Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are?

#112

Post by sgwealti » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 4:22 PM UTC

lucideer wrote: post #62

sgwealti wrote: post #4

They have no point of reference for comparison.

They do - other countries. Which I guess begs a follow-up question: why aren't they more outward-looking? This is the question the article asks halfway through, but it still ends without much of an answer. As someone living in Ireland, where many things are of similar low quality (e.g. healthcare), we are outward-looking but only in one specific way: we look toward the US for a lot of things. I've often asked this qu…

Yes, of course other countries, but most Americans have limited understanding of the way of life of people in other countries. Points of reference exist but the majority of Americans aren't familiar enough with those points of reference to make a comparison.

Re: Why Don’t Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are?

#113

Post by beagle3 » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 4:22 PM UTC

johndevor wrote: post #77

swarnie_ wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>universally loved by everyone Maybe a little strong on my part. Asked "would you scrap the NHS?" to randoms on the street i bet you would get a very strong no vote.

Is such a system sustainable though? Isn't England in a massive hole of debt? And if that debt comes due, what would happen to the quality of the NHS?

Almost Every western country is in a massive hole of debt, the us included.

I think it is more sustainable than other systems, especially the one practiced in the US.

Also, please note than in the US, public spending on health is already huge, and there’s a huge private spending as well - iirc about 20% of us GDP is spent on healthcare, which is double any other western country, and with worse results to boot. It is already unsustainable.

Re: Why Don’t Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are?

#114

Post by maxxxxx » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 4:22 PM UTC

holdenc wrote: post #55

In America Europeans are easy to spot because of their clear healthy looking skin. My theory is their diet is better, but it's likely due to many factors that relate to a healthier higher quality of life.

Come to California coast towns to see some really healthy looking people :-)

Re: Why Don’t Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are?

#115

Post by pdabbadabba » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 4:22 PM UTC

xyhopguy wrote: post #72

jdlyga wrote: post #20

This really, really depends on where you live. If you live in New York, you can get amazing food everywhere. We have things like paid family leave, free college, universal pre-k, etc that most Americans don't have. Also if you're working at a high pressure finance job, of course you will work long hours. But those are the exception. Working from 10 - 6 is pretty common for most people I know.

i wouldn't call new york an example of a "high quality of living." Subways that barely work? Terrifyingly chaotic traffic? A "me-first" attitude that is visible everywhere from the people complaining about citi-bikes to the advertisements literally EVERYWHERE. Going from coast-to-coast is like walking into a time machine.

The clear explanation here is that different people value different things. I lived in NYC and didn't enjoy it for two out of the three reasons you mention (I didn't really detect the "me-first attitude," although it's certainly a common NYC stereotype). But there are clearly a lot of other redeeming qualities such as the food, cultural opportunities, and general sense (accurate or not) or being at the center of the world.

(And come on. The Subways don't "barely work." They work. I took the subway to work virtually every day with few problems. They're just dirty and don't keep an extremely precise schedule.)

Of course, one's experience will also vary by neighborhood, income level, etc.

Re: Why Don’t Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are?

#116

Post by gumby » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 4:22 PM UTC

I think this is an indeed an unfair jeremiad (despite its disclaimer) yet it does make a correct point.

The overall objectives in the US are different. So in most countries, for example, a transportation system is designed to move people around. So a train line can run to an airport,for example. In most US cities its goals are seemingly different (spend as little as possible, regardless of externalities? Punish people who can't afford a car? Make a political point? It's never clear).

The transaction costs (both in time as well as actual $) of the most routine things are higher. So yes the taxes are lower but overall costs (the difference between total and disposable income) usually end up higher.

I do love working in the USA, and have done so for the majority of my (35+y) working life. The people are friendly (as they typically are most places). But day to day life in the US is a drag compared to life in other wealthy countries (I have lived and worked for years in Australia, Asia and Europe).

Part of my objection to that article is that things are more alike than they are different. Cartels can exert control to maintain rents (taxi unions, for example -- my train example isn't quite as cut and dried as I made out).

And in in the US when there's a difficult political dispute both sides typically battle it out, and amp it up, making resolution harder and fostering public cynicism and apathy. In Europe when there's a difficult political dispute both sides typically make a muddle, kicking the ball down the street and hoping the problem will go away, making resolution harder and fostering public cynicism and apathy. In the parts of Asia where I lived, when there's a difficult political dispute nothing really happens unless someone is strong enough to simply make a decision (a strongman perhaps, or the bureaucracy) which isn't particularly democratic and fosters, at best, public cynicism and apathy.

Re: Why Don’t Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are?

#117

Post by GiorgioG » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 4:22 PM UTC

padseeker wrote: post #34

This article starts off terribly. It does not get contain enough real substance till it gets to the point about the differential in life expectancy and discusses the point about 'the myth of exceptionalism in America'. The whole line about the difference in entertainment is utter drivel. Big Brother started in the UK, there is plenty of garbage culture coming from Europe. For the record I've met quite a few Europeans…

> The lack of a decent safety net in the US scares the crap out of me.

What kind of safety net? No you're not going to lose your job and draw unemployment benefits equal to your salary for years on end. This is also the land of personal responsibility. It can be scary at times. My 6 year old son has a chronic illness (type 1 diabetes) and his supplies cost an exorbitant amount of money. If somehow I was unable to find employment, drained all of our savings, etc. he wouldn't die, he just wouldn't get the absolute top of the line equipment (insulin pump / continuous glucose monitor / sensors / etc.) Medicaid would provide him insulin and needles. It's not ideal, but I don't expect everyone else to pay for my family's bad luck / misfortune.

Re: Why Don’t Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are?

#118

Post by tptacek » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 4:23 PM UTC

cdoxsey wrote: post #90

Ameericans do realize how unhappy they are. There's an epidemic of opiate addiction. That unhappiness is the result of many things: major changes in the job market leaving millions without opportunities, the collapse of hundreds of small towns and communities, the disintegration of the nuclear family, etc. Ironically, materially, Americans are much better off than they were decades ago, but all that material prosperi…

Non-medical opiate use is up double digits in Europe as well. The opiate epidemic is coming to Europe. There's more to it than "life is hard".

Re: Why Don’t Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are?

#119

Post by creaghpatr » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 4:23 PM UTC

binaryapparatus wrote: post #75

padseeker wrote: post #34

This article starts off terribly. It does not get contain enough real substance till it gets to the point about the differential in life expectancy and discusses the point about 'the myth of exceptionalism in America'. The whole line about the difference in entertainment is utter drivel. Big Brother started in the UK, there is plenty of garbage culture coming from Europe. For the record I've met quite a few Europeans…

Have you been in Greece or Spain? Experienced quality of life is way above statistical or expected. Proud moment in most of the Europe is being able to take relaxed coffee and think, which is possible in most countries. I am always puzzled when somebody proudly tries to explain to me how having two jobs is great.

Greece? The country where the population no longer dreams about their future due to total economic implosion?

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/08/after-nearly-a-decade-of-eco...

"We don't dream. We are fine, we continue our lives, we know that we don't live in extreme poverty. But if you want to learn a second language, if you want to do something for yourself, improving your skills, you can't or you are very limited," Eva Pavlopoulo, a 29-year-old student, told CNBC in the tourist-friendly neighborhood of Plaka in central Athens.

Re: Why Don’t Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are?

#120

Post by ryanianian » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 4:23 PM UTC

xyhopguy wrote: post #72

jdlyga wrote: post #20

This really, really depends on where you live. If you live in New York, you can get amazing food everywhere. We have things like paid family leave, free college, universal pre-k, etc that most Americans don't have. Also if you're working at a high pressure finance job, of course you will work long hours. But those are the exception. Working from 10 - 6 is pretty common for most people I know.

i wouldn't call new york an example of a "high quality of living." Subways that barely work? Terrifyingly chaotic traffic? A "me-first" attitude that is visible everywhere from the people complaining about citi-bikes to the advertisements literally EVERYWHERE. Going from coast-to-coast is like walking into a time machine.

Yes NY subways are in a state of disrepair at the moment, but that misses the forest for the trees. Public outcry is already starting to force bureaucrats to address this. I hope people remain outraged here.

But 99% of the time you can get from A->B in NY without much stress. You hardly ever need a car. You have almost literally the best of anything in the world within that hour-or-less subway ride.

You may not be able to afford all the best-of-everything, but the best X is there as an option if you decide you'd prefer X instead of rent (or paying medical bills). Almost always you can turn sweat into $ to buy X without anybody saying no. Nobody forces you to live in NY, and nobody forces you to buy X. But it's there if you want it.

(Of course you can argue that X is too expensive or that the sweat-to-$ ratio is wildly unbalanced but that doesn't change the facts.)