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Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

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Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#631
post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had the fortune to work at an agency that cared a whole lot, and tended to take on clients who had learned hard lessons from bad code written for the platform we worked in. Code quality matters and has tangible consequences in that niche, and it was awesome to work in that environment. I haven't worked anywhere like that previously, and I think the key factors that brought code quality to the forefront were: * Bugs…

That's a nice place to work in! How was this company doing? Would it be doing better just shipping "if it makes money - it's good enough" code?

It really was! I believe they were doing well, growing at a steady pace. Another part of the puzzle was that client relationships were long, over years, so if we wrote bad code it was us that would have to deal with it later. The clients were typically larger, which helped to that end.

We did take on a rushed project at one point, so there is a good comparison in that project. It shipped, but everyone was unhappy, some key people left and had to be re-hired for. It triggered a very transparent discussion roughly titled "let's figure out how to never do that again" and to that end they curated the clients more carefully, and put in some checks to see if projects are a good fit.

But I understand that is probably unique, and at previous jobs the "good enough to make money" mantra has worked out okay.

I think when your software domain is complex and rapid, it pays to have sound architecture. When it is simple, or slow to change, it doesn't matter quite as much.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#632
post #24
post #15

I'm astonished that facebook is successfully able to pull the "we're a platform, its not our fault people are using it illegally" excuse here. There is a huge difference between allowing people to freely post content on places like FB, twitter, or Reddit, and selling access the attention of people that fit specific characteristics. How long until the tech giants are held accountable for willfully skirting decades of…

Well, i dunno. I think it's still on the advertiser to follow the law. Kind of like when some insurance co advertises some insurance product and that advert has to go through copy editors and legal to make sure it does not break any laws (representing product faithfully, not making false or dubious claims) before it gets okayed to be published. In this case HR should consult with legal before putting up job announcem…

It’s in Facebook’s interest to do the policing here. You’re right, the responsibility is on the advertiser, and the law needs enforcement mechanisms. Facebook doesn’t want to be regulated, but if they through malice or ignorance perpetuate civil rights violations, then they will be.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#633

Consider me excluded. :-)

I'm rapidly approaching 50 myself, and while I get that what they're doing is wrong, I'm also not that upset about this either. At my age, I'm not interested in wasting my time with meat grinders that don't value work-life balance.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Executives (VP and above) Aren't you being overly restrictive in scope here? Many executives are MBAs, but most MBAs are not executives.

True; but stalling out in middle management is never the reason people get an MBA.

Waiting tables in Hollywood is never the reason people take up acting, and yet so it goes.

Anecdotally, I know several full time top 10 grads who aren't exactly on the fast track to the c-suite, and I assume this is even more true for the broader pool of MBAs.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#635
post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you, and this is a hard lesson to learn. But I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. Software should really only be measured by the value it provides. If a terribly buggy piece of poorly written code still saves hundreds of man hours a week, it's a win. (Unit tests be damned) If that big ball of mud that's using 20 year old technology still prints a billion dollars a year - that's a win. (Microservic…

This is what I call the Mediocre Mercenary Mentality, this idea that "as long as we can make money off of it, it's good enough". This mentality is the reason why sometimes -- but not always! -- my phone won't play music in my car until I restart the _car_. This mentality is why game development companies get away with charging full price for unfinished, bug-ridden games with crippled features and missing content. Thi…

It sounds like you'd burn out in any profession. Perfect is the enemy of the good. If you're holding your work, and that of others', to a perfectionist's standard, then you're just causing yourself unnecessary stress and anxiety.

Most of those bugs and failures you listed are really inconsequential in their contexts.

Car won't play your phone's music? Use the radio. Game has bugs? Play another game until it's patched, or find inventive ways to use the bug. Can't see your CC? You can still charge on it and pay its balance. Experian and Equifax don't report same credit score? Your creditors aren't reporting to every credit bureau.

Ashamed that someone else's system doesn't work? I can't help you there. That's some deep psychological issue.

About 10 years ago I came to understand that mediocre runs the world. All these people, who are your bosses, who are getting raises and promotions, they're the B/C students from college. They don't care about perfect. They really only care about finishing what they're assigned and going on with their outside life.

If you want perfect, do it on your own time.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#636
post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you, and this is a hard lesson to learn. But I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. Software should really only be measured by the value it provides. If a terribly buggy piece of poorly written code still saves hundreds of man hours a week, it's a win. (Unit tests be damned) If that big ball of mud that's using 20 year old technology still prints a billion dollars a year - that's a win. (Microservic…

This is what I call the Mediocre Mercenary Mentality, this idea that "as long as we can make money off of it, it's good enough". This mentality is the reason why sometimes -- but not always! -- my phone won't play music in my car until I restart the _car_. This mentality is why game development companies get away with charging full price for unfinished, bug-ridden games with crippled features and missing content. Thi…

>This mentality is why I feel ashamed every time a receptionist apologizes for the wait

why would you feel ashamed for waiting a little longer?

that's an odd thing to be insecure about

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#637
post #541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Older people might be closer to having a family, which means less productivity, high cost (parental leave is very expensive*), and also in areas like SF or mountain view might have high turn-over rate because of the expensiveness of the city, whereas younger people can cram into a room for a decade until that happens. Also many corporate benefits like booze, free food and all that might not have the same premium for…

>>Older people might be closer to having a family, which means less productivity, high cost (parental leave is very expensive*), The Demo they were targeting is the age group (25 to 36 years old ) is when most people have their first child. No very many people start a family when they are over 40, sure it happens but it is rare. If parental leave was a concern than hiring people over 40 should be your priority as mos…

> The Demo they were targeting is the age group (25 to 36 years old ) is when most people have their first child. No very many people start a family when they are over 40, sure it happens but it is rare. If parental leave was a concern than hiring people over 40 should be your priority as most people over 40 will have old children and not be taking parental leave. People over 50 will likely have Collage aged or old children and need every very little time off for child related events (school events, illness, etc) So discriminating against older workers because of children seems illogical

I hadnt seen the exact age group and you are correct: in terms of parental leave 25-36 are more dangerous. All what follows your argumentation supports that there are reasons to want people from one age group or another. Which is what the person I answered to was asking: examples of legitimate reasons to (literally, not 'negatively')discriminate by age.

> Just so you know, there is an entire world outside of SF and Mountain View... I know it is shocking but...

Im not american, you don't need to tell me about that. But to this day, SF suffers from very low diversity in the work environment, maybe because families leave the city.

> Why would you want to? I am in my mid 30;s now, even when I was in my early 20's I refused to have more than 1 roommate. I would much rather make 50-75K in an area where I can afford a 3 bedroom home on my own than make 100-150K and have to live in 100 square feet and "cram into a room for a decade" Each to their own I guess, but count me out of that life style

The more energy you put behind your preferences, the more you justify that is logical for employers to target different groups. Its not about what you think, its about what whatever employer thinks employees think. And if they think 25 year olds are more likely to move , to start working for them, to live in SF or MV for 10 years,and are more likely to be swayed by social media ads for a job, then they have an absolutely legitimate reason to target.

For discrimination in america, I think Adam Smith made one of the best arguments: because it is illegal to have that preference, it makes people accusative. If it weren't illegal, it would barely be a topic at all, as it is that so many job positions show these biases but because they are legal people dont even care.

"The law which put an end to all prosecutions against witchcraft, which put it out of any man’s power to gratify his own malice by accusing his neighbour of that imaginary crime, seems effectually to have put an end to those fears and suspicions by taking away the great cause which encouraged and supported them."

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#638
post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> as she said, "the type of people on the other side of the table from us are different than they used to be, and they don't want to be dealing with a bunch of 65-year-old white guys. So those aren't the type of people we're looking for." That's pretty much a direct quote. Not to defend the quote, but I wonder how else would you characterize “non-diversity” in this context? Specifically, if their current workforce co…

I highly doubt that this mysterious "company with a large proportion of the search engine market" is filled with 65yo white males. In fact it would actually make them significantly more diverse if they were to hire some 65yo white males.

My thought was Microsoft. There are a ton of those from back in the day still there.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#639
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In your example, what do you think would happen if someone posted an ad selling drugs?

No newspaper would run such a thing (key words: editorial control), but if the poster was using coded language, perhaps? I think that's the closest analog here. With that example in mind, that puts someone running the ad in a weird place, since literally every ad network in 2017 does demographic targeting. I don't think it's feasible to vet every ad that runs to ensure that the poster is complying with the law. All t…

Right, so why do you think they have editorial control? For that same reason, shouldn't Facebook?

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#640
I highly doubt this is the only avenue of age discrimination. At 54, my interview process this year was vastly different than in the past.

I honestly felt like the token old-person interview and no one had any intention of recommending me for a job.

The hiring people are all younger and looking for fun coworkers to hang out with and definitely don't want to work with people bogged down with experience.

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